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Home My WebLink About00-00601 ", ~~.- " 1lio!L... . DAVID L. RUPP, II and WANDA L. : IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF RUPP, Plaintiffs . CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA . : vs. : NO. 00-601 CIVIL TERM : ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA : CIVIL ACTION - LAW KIMMEL, Defendants : IN CUSTODY CUSTODY CXI!ICILIATICN SUMMARY REI'CRr IN ACCmDANCE WITH CUMBERLAND COONTY RIlLE OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 1915.3-8, the undersigned Custody Conciliator submits the following report: 1. The peJ:'tinent information concerning the Children who are the Subjects of this litigation is as follows: NAME DATE OF BIRTH CURRENTLY IN CUSTODY OF Quinton Rupp Nevin Rupp October 23, 1995 September 5, 1996 Mother Mother 2. A Custody Conciliation Conference was held on March 22, 2000, with the following individuals in attendance: The paternal Grandparents, David and Wanda Rupp, the Mother, Deanna Kimmel, with her counsel, Carol J. Lindsay, Esquire I and the Father, Eric Rupp, who is not represented by counsel. The Grandparents' counsel, Yvonne M. Husic, Esquire was not able to attend the March 22 Conference. 3. The March 22, 2000 Conciliation Conference was held on the paternal GrandpaJ:'ents' Peti tion for partial physical custody of the Children. The Grandparents felt it was necessary to file a petition because their son, the Children's Father, would not allow them to have ocntact during his periods of partial custody because of a conflict between the Grandparents and the Father's girlfriend. Although the Mother was not opposed entirely to visitation for the Grandparents, she did believe some restrictions were necessary. After substantial discussion at the Conference, the Grandparents requested that the Conference be rescheduled so that they could have the benefit of attendance of their legal counsel. The Conference was rescheduled to May 16, 2000 and again rescheduled to July 18, 2000. 4. A second Custody Conciliation Conference was held on July 18, 2000 with the followiI'l9 individuals in attendance: The paternal Grandparents, David and Wanda Rupp, with their counsel, Yvonne Husic, Esquire, and the Mother's counsel, Carol J. Lindsay, Esquire. The Mother mistakenly believed the Conference was scheduled for a later time and was not present although her counsel participated on her behalf. The Father, Eric D. Rupp, has signeC1 Consents to the adoption of the Children by the Mother's ,~_. ~'> ~ I ~ . -~ "", " husband, and did not attend the Conference. 5. It was decided at the Conference that it was not necessary at this time to enter an Order with respect to partial custody or to schedule a Hearing. It was agreed that after the Adoption Hearing on August 2, 2000, the parties would continue their efforts outside the legal process to reach a resolution concerning ongoing contact between the Grandparents and the Children. It was agreed that counsel for either party may contact the Conciliator by October 2, 2000 to either request an additional Custody Conciliation Conference or to request the scheduling of a Hearing. If no contact is received by October 2, 2000, the Conciliator will automatically relinquish jurisdiction in this matter. Date ~ (Cfl ;}O!JV 4ALL~ Dawn S. Sunday, Esquire Custody Conciliator cc: Yvonne M. Husic, Esquire - Counsel for paternal Carol J. Lindsay, Esquire - Counsel for Mother -"~ . f\ 00 l~ 1'J-~' ~'{7 o G iJt::, III I'! ~~:': ~....:< J::'",C"I ~C) ~.:.C) )"--"C:, 2~ ::"( (j " 1'::3 o ,- r- r-;;; rv (..i', ;:'~ -- '!? ',:~~'f--:~ :.n ~"l.~l "<C. ~;:!i Ul ~~i . Ul ~ '" ..:1..... III ~ ~~B3~ ..... 'g ~~E<~ ..:.... 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Plaintiffs are DAVID L. RUPP and WANDA 1. RUPP, Husband and Wife, residing at 1601 Miller Road, Dauphin, Dauphin County, Pennsylvania 17018. 2. Defendants are the maternal grandparents of QUINTON RUPP, age 4 years, and NEVIN RUPP, age 3 years. 3. Defendant is ERIC D. RUPP, Father of QUINTON and NEVIN RUPP, residing at 206 Capitol Hill Road, Apartment #4, Dillsburg, York County, Pennsylvania 17019. 4, Defendant is DEANNA KIMMEL, Mother of QUINTON and NEVIN RUPP, residing at 200 Big Spring Terrace, Newville, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania 17241. 5. Plaintiffs seek partial custody and/or visitation of the following children: Quinton Rupp Age 4 years DOB: 10-23-95 200 Big Spring Terrace Newville, PA 17241 Nevin Rupp Age 3 years DOB: 9-5-96 200 Big Spring Terrace Newville, PA 17241 6. The children were born out of wedlock. 7. The children are presently in the custody of their natural mother, DEANNA RIMMEl, who resides at 200 Big Spring Terrace, Newville, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania 17241. Mother is now married. I PlAINlrlFF'S EXHIIBIT I ""2.... 1&'['00 ,--,~-r -," ~, , ..J...l,""l!l,U . / 8. During the past five years, the children resides continuously wit~ their mother at various addresses, including the current address specified in this Complaint. 9. The father of the children, ERIC D. RUPP, is single and lives with his paramour at the address specified herein this Complaint. 10. Defendant Eric Rupp refuses to allow the children to visit or to have any contact with their grandparents because Defendant Eric Rupp alleges that Plaintiffs do not like his paramour. II. Plaintiffs have not participated as a party or witness, or in another capacity, in other litigation concerning the custody of the children in this or another court. 12. Plaintiffs have no information of a custody proceeding concerning the children pending in a court of this Commonwealth, 13. Plaintiffs do not know of a person not a party to the proceeding who has physical custody of the children or claims to have custody or visitation rights with respect to the children. 14. Defendant Deanna Kimmel is agreeable to visitation with the Plaintiff grandparents during the Defendant father's time. 15. The best interest and permanent welfare of the children will be served by allowing the children to spend one weekend per month, Friday to Sunday, with their paternal grandparents. Respectfully submitted, NICHOLAS & FOREMAN, P.C. By:"i i U)y\/\U l~( . Yvonn, . Husic, Esquire ID No. 444 4409 North Front Street Harrisburg, PA 17110 (717) 236-9391 ,/tJ~' Attorneys for Plaintiff DATED: )/2.1 bD ~, , ,c , ~~."i..~>'J ~ .' DAVID 1. RUPP, II and WANDAL.RUPP, Plaintiffs IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYIr VANIA v. NO. ;;2000 - (/O I ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA KIMMEL, Defendants CIVIL ACTION - LAW CUSTODY VERIFICATION I verify that the statement made in the foregoing document is true and correct to the best of my knowledge, information and belief. I understand that the statements therein are made subject to the penalties of 18 Pa. C.S. ~4904 relating to unsworn falsification to authorities. ;;2 J'd- Dated: T~lJ.J]ary -,2000 ]) C,Uy~\ '--J . (~~'-'-\~() ~ DAVID 1. RUPP II VERIFICATION I verify that the statement made in the foregoing document is true and correct to the best of my knowledge, information and belief.' I understand that the statements therein are made subject to the penalties of 18 Pa. C.S. ~4904 relating to unsworn falsification to authorities. /...., v'/",.--- ~~L:.?:x<:/ '7" ';ti~'?J WANDA 1. RUPP II / "d-j:L JaR\iu.y ,2000 Dated: . JI _ ,'- '.J_~<" 00 DAVID L. RUPP, II and WANDA L. RUPP, Plaintiffs IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYt VANIA v. NO. :;LCJOO- GO/ ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA KIMMEL, Defendants CIVIL ACTION - LAW CUSTODY CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE ':::V,-,O j-e[:;, I, YVONNE M. HUSIC, Esquire, hereby certify that on this ~ day of January, 2000, a copy of the aforementioned Complaint for Custody was esrved on Defendants by first class mail, postage prepaid upon the following persons: Eric D. Rupp 206 Capitol Hill Road, Apartment #4 Dillsburg, PA 17019 Deanna Kimmel 200 Big Spring Terrace Newville, PA 17241 Respectfully submitted, NICHOLAS & FOREMAN, P.e. B~7../U?JY[/rd. Lit(. / vonne M. Husic, Esqllire i up Ct. 10 #74444 i 4409 North Front Street Harrisburg, P A 1711 0 717-236-9391 .t/l- L C" ~~j Dated: , ,2000 Attorneys for Plaintiffs ~"- _..._.....u,..""""'klml><..., 'II' DAVID L. RUFP, II and WANDA L. RUPP, Plaintiffs IN THE OJURT OF CXJMMON PLEAS OF : CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA : vs. : NO. 00-601 CIVIL TERM ERIC D. RUFP and DEANNA KIMMEL, Defendants : CIVIL ACTION - LAW : IN CUSTODY CUSTODY CCNCILIATICN SUMMARY REJ?CRr IN ACXXlIDANCE WITH CUMBERLAND CCXNl'Y RULE OF CIVIL PRCCEOORE 1915.3-8, the undersignecl Custody Conciliator submits the following report: 1. The pertinent information concerning the Children who are the subjects of this litigation is as follows: NAME DATE OF BIRTH CURRENrLY IN CUSTODY OF Quinton Rupp Nevin Rupp October 23, 1995 September 5, 1996 Mother Mother 2. A Custody Conciliation Conference was held on March 22, 2000, with the following individuals in attendance: The paternal Grandparents, David and Wanda Rupp, the Mother, Deanna Kimmel, with her counsel, Carol J. Lindsay, Esquire, and the Father, Eric Rupp, who is not represented by counsel. The Grandparents' counsel, Yvonne M. Husic, Esquire was not able to attend the March 22 Conference. 3. The March 22, 2000 Conciliation Conference was held on the paternal Grandparents' Petition for partial physical custody of the Children. The Grandparents felt it was necessary to file a Petition because their son, the Children's Father, would not allow them to have ocntact during his periods of partial custody because of a conflict between the Grandparents and the Father's girlfriend. Although the Mother was not opposed entirely to visitation for the Grandparents, she did believe some restrictions were necessary. After substantial discussion at the Conference, the Grandparents requested that the Conference be rescheduled so that they could have the benefit of attendance of their legal counsel. The Conference was rescheduled to May 16, 2000 and again rescheduled to July 18, 2000. 4. A second Custody Conciliation Conference was held on July 18, 2000 with the following individuals in attendance: The paternal Grandparents, David and Wanda Rupp, with their counsel, Yvonne Husic, Esquire, and the Mother's counsel, Carol J. Lindsay, Esquire. The Mother mistakenly believed the Conference was scheduled for a later time and was not present although her counsel participated on her behalf. The Father, Eric D. Rupp, has signed Consents to the adoption of the Children by the Mother 1 s PLAINT\IFF'S EXHIBIT I 12..' .~ ue:t .~ ~'" , .' ~'_ "0' '='<' "l4lm/d",u",- - i husband, and did not attend the Conference. 5. It was decided at the Conference that it was not necessary at this time to enter an order with respect to partial custody or to schedule a Hearing. It was agreed that after the Adoption Hearing on August 2, 2000, the parties would continue their efforts outside the legal process to reach a resolution concerning ongoing contact between the Grandparents and the Children. It was agreed that counsel for either party rray contact the Conciliator by October 2, 2000 to either request an additional CUstody Conciliation Conference or to request the scheduling of a Hearing. If no contact is received by October 2, 2000, the Conciliator will automatically relinquish jurisdiction in this matter. ~ (1r J-OcJU cC:L ~ rl( Dawn S. Sunday, Esquire CUstody Conciliator Date cc: Yvonne M. Husic, Esquire - Counsel for paternal Grandparents Carol J. Lindsay, Esquire - Counsel for Mother -'^ ,~_. , . - -1 '~. . ' _i'. DAVID L. RUFP, II and WANDA L. RUFP I IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF Plaintiffs : CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA : vs. . NO. 00-601 CIVIL TERM . . . ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA KIMMEL I : CIVIL ACTION - LAW Defendants : IN CUSTODY SUPPLEMENTAL CUSTODY CXliICILIATICI'l SUMMARY REPORT IN ACCCIIDANCE WITH CUMBERLAND axJN'l'Y RIJLE OF CIVIL PROCEIXJRE 1915.3-8, the undersigned Custody Conciliator submits the following report: 1. This matter involves a Petition by the Children's Paternal grandparents for pariods of visitation or partial custody. The most recent Conciliation Conference was held on July 18, 2000, as a result of which the attached Custody Conciliation Summary Report was submitted without an Order. 2. At the time of the July 18, 2000 Conference, the Mother requested that the custody issues be put on hold until after August 2, 2000, the date of the Adoption Hearing in proceedings through which the Mother's husband was adopting the Children with the Father I s consent.. The Mother indicated that after the adoption was finalized she would feel more secure wi th respect to the custody situation and would be in a better position to address the Paternal grandparents' request for contact with the Children. The Mother implied that she would be willing at that time to establish at least some type of arrangement for the grandparents. The Paternal grandparents agreed to wait until after the Adoption Hearing in deference to the Mother, to pursue their Petition for Visitation. 3. The Conciliator has now been advised by counsel that, although the adoption proceedings were finalized as expected in August, no further progress has been made with respect to the grandparents' Petition. The grandparents' counsel requested a Hearing in accordance with paragraph 5 of the July 19, 2000 Conciliation summary Report. As the parties have unsuccessfully attempted to reach an agreement at two prior Conciliation Conferences, it will be necessary to schedule a Hearing to finally resolve the matter. 4. Accordingly, the Conciliator recommends an Order in the form as attached scheduling a Hearing, which is expacted to require one-half day. ~.YN"<..Av4 /2 7 d<Yt!nJ Date ' ~~ Dawn S. Sunday, Esqu~re Custody Conciliator """"",,,IIJli>I,w,,_ PLAINTiFF'S I EXHIBIT I I 12.'1 '00 '"' -;;-' , , - ""'....i~-uiL-I:l6iin,IIJ LAW OFFICES rr~E STEVE C. NICHOLAS BRUCE D. FOREMAN JEFF FOREMAN YVONNE M. HUSIC JAMES L. WALSH NICHOLAS & FOREMAN, P,C. 4409 NORTH FRONT STREET HARRISBURG, PENNSYLVANIA 17110-1709 TELEPHONE (717) 236-9391 FAX (717) 236-6602 January 20, 2000 Mrs. Deanna Kimmel 150 West Middlesex Drive Carlisle,PA 17013 RE: Grandparent visitation Dear Mrs. Kimmel: This firm represents David and Wanda Rupp, the grandparents of Quinton and Nevin, who are seeking monthly visitation with their grandsons, I understand that they have discussed this matter with you, and that you are agreeable to visitation. As you know, the boys' father, Eric, has terminated his relationship with David and Wanda, induding the opportunity for the boys to visit their grandparents. To that end, they are filing a complaint for custody (visitation) with the boys since their son refuses to allow any contacts or visits with their grandparents. David and Wanda are requesting a visitation schedule of once a month. We hope that you remain agreeable to this arrangement. If so, I would like for you to sign an 'affidavit of consent' to a monthly visitation schedule. In addition, I would also want to obtain your signature to an 'acceptance of service' of the custody complaint, as opposed to any formal service. Kindly call me at your earliest convenience to let me know whether we can proceed in this manner. Thank you. Very truly yours, NICHOLAS & FOREMAN , -;--..... J7hv']iL.: It J -......,,~, J" J ~ /,i'~ '". ""'- Y onne M. Husic i ------" cc: David and Wanda Rupp , PLAINTIFF'S I EXHIBIT : /,..I"-T 5 \'2..,.00 < ~< -'~;,;:"...,."",' LAW OFFICES F , i~ It::: iolI 1.-...:.0_..:.....,-" ,,~-::.';;~ STEVE C. NICHOLAS BRUCE D. FOREMAN JEFF FOREMAN YVONNE M. HUSIC JAMES L. WALSH NICHOLAS & FOREMAN, P.c. v/lo TELEPHONE (717) 236-9391 FAX (717) 236-6602 4409 NORTH FRONT STREET HARRISBURG, PENNSYLVANIA 17110-1709 May 16,2000 Carol J. Lindsay, Esquire Flower, Flower & Lindsay 11 East High Street Carlisle, PA 17013-3016 In Re: Rupp v. Rupp/Kimmel Conciliation Dear Carol: This letter is a follow up to the message I left at your office on the morning of May 16, 2000, indicating my clients' agreement to a continuance of the conciliation in the above named matter. I also placed a call to conciliator, Dawn Sunday, informing her of same, with a request for rescheduling within the next month and one half to two months. In the interim, my clients would like to have an opportunity to take the children to lunch. My clients will drive to their home, take the children to lunch, and then bring them back home. A convenient time would be any Saturday or Sunday; would you please discuss this with your client and respond to me as soon as possible. Upon reliance of your statements that your client is willing to continue the participation of the grandparents in visiting their grandchildren, we look forward to your continued cooperation in this regard. Please advise accordingly. Thank you kindly. Very truly yours, Yvonne M. Husic YMH/kk cc: Mr. and Mrs. Rupp , PLAINTIFF'S , EXHIBiT I LICT ~ ('2.'" "'0 ~- ~ ~ '"" -"~"..M>J~,,,,' C\ LAW OFFICES STEVE C. NICHOLAS BRUCE D. FOREMAN JEFF FOREMAN YVONNE M. HUSIC JAMES L. WALSH NICHOLAS & FOREMAN, P.C. 4409 NORTH FRONT STREET HARRISBURG, PENNSYLVANIA 17110-1709 TELEPHONE (717) 236-9391 FAX (717) 236-8602 September 11,2000 Carol J. Lindsay, Esquire Flower, Flower & Lindsay, PC 11 East High Street Carlisle, P A 17013 In Re: Rupp v. Kimmel and Rupp Docket #00-601 Custody Dear Carol: By this letter, I am attempting to follow up from our conciliation scheduled for July 18, 2000. As you know, my clients were agreeable and supported the adoption of the children to Deanna's current husband. In the meantime, I understand the adoption was completed; however, David Rupp has, on numerous occasions attempted to contact Deanna to arran,e for visitation with children. Deanna spoke to Mr. Rupp on July 27th and again on August 10 , but I understand that she put off my clients until after school started. FolloWing the start of school, Deanna has not returned any calls to my client. In spite of the adoption, my clients would like an opportunity to have and would take any visitation with the children. I reinstate my initial request to you for Mr. and Mrs. Rupp to come down to visit with the children at Deanna's home and take them to lunch. This is the extent of the visitation they would like at this time. It is our preference to work this matter out amicably. However, if we are unable to do so, my clients have directed me to proceed to a hearing on this matter. Please contact me at your earliest convenience. Thank you kindly. Very truly yours, Yvonne M. Husic YMH.cln cc: Mr. and Mrs. David Rupp PLAINTIFF'S EXHIIBIT I ,a.{ '0;7 I..-)LT ~~~ ! I ~ . , -.. . t DAVID L. RUFP, II and WANDA L. RUFP, Plaintiffs : IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA . . : vs. : NO. 00-601 CIVIL TERM : ERIC D. RUFP and DEANNA KIMMEL, Defendants . . CIVIL ACTION - LAW IN CUSTODY : ORDER OF COURT AND NCJi, this ~ day of ~ consideration of the attached Custody Conciliation Report, and directed as follows: , 2000, upon it is ordered 1. A Hearing is scheduled in Court Room 4 ,of the Cumberland County Court House, on the I,(j;f; day of ('pI'P/1?l!..P/L..- ,2000, at /; ,3n o'clock, ~.m., at which time testJ.mony will be taken. For purposes of the Heaa:i1g, the Paternal grandparents, David L. Rupp and Wanda L. Rupp, shall be deemed to be the moving parties and shall proceed initially with testimony. Counsel for the parties shall file with the Court and opposing counsel a Memorandum setting forth each party's position on custody, a list of witnesses who are expected to testify at the Hearing, and a summary of the anticipated testimony of each witness. These Memoranda shall be filed at least 10 days prior to the Hearing date. BY THE COURT, -I1IJ .~ ~ t:P tit "",'; ~ cc: Yvonne M. Husic, Esquire - Counsel for Plaintiffs Carol J. Lindsay, Esquire - Counsel for Mother ~ IL lli; . . !!l!:I I I ~'. , ~ -,,~ . ~--.-.~~~~ ", , r-~ . "" :'.....,...,.'" r\\ ~~~'~_('li':~:-\C~'t. (,C" ,,:'" ";C,.~,,.r:' "I'J-\f",nv \,,,:\ . ' ", ,;~, .";,._;;'~., \,'l \ 000\:" -3 ~J~\\\ 24 CUN\6d\d'i;;D couNTt' PENNS'iL\li'N\1\ _',.,.~, !!!!Ili= ""~"""1'f"'''''''''] ~~ 11!1.."_ ,_ ",." .., ,,",,,,,,~"" ,'~ ~ ~~"~ :, . . DAVID L. RUPP, II and WANDA L. RUPP, Plaintiffs : IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF CUMBERLAND CXXlNTY, PENNSYLVANIA . . : vs. : NO. 00-601 CIVIL TERM . . ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA KIMMEL, Defendants . . CIVIL ACTION - LAW IN CUSTODY : SUPPLEMENTAL ClJS'lWY <:x:H:ILIATIOO SDMMARY REPORT IN ACCDRDANCE WITH CI.lMBERLAND <XXlNTY RIlLE OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 1915.3-8, the undersigned Custody Conciliator submits the following report: 1. This matter involves a Petition by the Children's Paternal grandparents for periods of visitation or partial custody. The most recent Conciliation Conference was held on July 18, 2000, as a result of which the attached Custody Conciliation Surrnnary Report was submitted without an Order. 2. At the time of the July 18, 2000 Conference, the Mother requested that the custody issues be put on hold until after August 2, 2000, the date of the Adoption Hearing in proceedings through which the Mother's husband was adopting the Children with the Father's consent. The Mother indicated that after the adoption was finalized she would feel more secure with respect to the custody situation and would be in a better position to address the Paternal grandparents' request for contact with the Children. The Mother implied that she would be willing at that time to establish at least some type of arrangement for the grandparents. The Paternal grandparents agreed to wait until after the Adoption Hearing in deference to the Mother, to pursue their petition for Visitation. 3. The Conciliator has now been advised by counsel that, although the adoption proceedings were finalized as expected in August, no further progress has been made with respect to the grandparents' Petition. The grandparents' counsel requested a Hearing in accordance with paragraph 5 of the July 19, 2000 Conciliation Surrnnary Report. As the parties have unsuccessfully attempted to reach an agreement at two prior Conciliation Conferences, it will be necessary to schedule a Hearing to finally resolve the matter. 4. Accordingly, the Conciliator recommends an Order in the form as attached scheduling a Hearing, which is expected to require one-half day. ~Y.NO.,J,h1 Jl7. ~n Date r &~~ Dawn S. Sunday, Esquire Custody Conciliator 1iI);j~illlIIiI:!!ij . . " , ~=.-'<Wl" p DAVID L. RUPP, IT and WANDA L. RUPP, :IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS :CUMBERLAND COUNTY, Plaintiffs v :No. 2000 - 601 ERIC D. RUPP and, DEANNA KIMMEL, Defendants : CIVIL ACTION -LAW :IN CUSTODY PRE-TRIAL STATEMENT NOW COMES the Plaintiffs, DAVID and WANDA RUPP, by and through their attorneys, Nicholas & Foreman, P.C., by Yvonne M, Husic, Esquire, and files the following Pre-Trial Statement: I. Expert Witness. None identified at present. 2, Other Witnesses. i. David Rupp ii. Wanda Rupp Plaintiff reserves the right to call other witnesses as necessary, 3, Exhibits. i. November 30, 1999, letter from Eric Rupp to his parents. ii. January 20, 2000, correspondence to Deanna Kimmel. iii. Complaint for Custody (visitation), February 2,2000. L _ ~ , , , > ~ -;.;"'-\!,~ .. ' iv. May 16, 2000, correspondence to Atty. Lindsay & Concil, Sunday. v. July 19,2000, Conciliation Summary Report. vi. September 11, 2000, correspondence to Atty, Lindsay, vii. September 12, 2000, correspondence to Conciliator Dawn Sunday. viii. September 27,2000, Conciliation Report. Plaintiff reserves the right to supplement the above exhibit list, 4. Pr090sed Resolution, The Grandparents, David and Wanda Rupp seek visitation only with their grandsons every other month for a 3 - 4 hour period of time. vonne M. Husic, Esquire A Atty. 10# 74444 ICHOLAS & FOREMAN, P,C, 4409 North Front Street Harrisburg. PA 17110 (717) 236-9391 Attorneys for Plaintiffs Dated: December I, 2000 2 ,;-c';""",-,,,', ','I _, , ,."",' ',." '"" ,",' 1."_ ;- ',- -- ,~'--\.' -.," ';;'" -" ',.:' --';,:,,~ ;''''>b"~,-';' ,- '.- ';,:-;--: ,j~cj,,~'..S,:;~~.~,:,~ ::,"~ 'c :.., , _..;,;.__ ~\"~':" KIMMEL acceptance of service tjb February 21,2000 , l' E DAVID L. RUPP, II and WANDA L. RUPP, IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA Plaintiffs v. CIVIL ACTION - LAW ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA KIMMEL, Defendants NO. 00-601 CIVIL TERM CUSTODY PRAECIPE TO ENTER APPEARANCE TO THE PROTHONOTARY: Please enter my appearance on behalf of Defendant Deanna Kimmel in the above captioned matter. FLOWER, FLOWER & LINDSAY, P.C. Attorneys for Defendant Deanna Kimmel By: ~. - --'.j; - - ~ ~ , ^\ "~=';'-"':' ;:'" _~.'H~_ 'J " - ,. .,-+-->;. -":',::1- ',~,;" .~ ' "'~'-ji; KIMMEL acceptance of service tjb February 21,2000 DAVID L. RUPP, II and WANDA L. RUPP, IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA Plaintiffs v. CIVIL ACTION. LAW ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA KIMMEL, Defendants NO. 00-601 CIVIL TERM CUSTODY CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE AND now, this ;z..' , 2000, I, Carol J. day of Lindsay, Esquire, of the law firm of FLOWER, FLOWER & LIND , P.C., Attorneys, hereby certify that I served the within Praecipe to Enter Appearance this day by depositing same in the United States Mail, First Class, Postage Prepaid, in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, addressed to: Yvonne M. Husic, Esquire NICHOLAS & FORMAN, P. C. 4409 North Front Street Harrisburg, PA 17110-1709 FLOWER, FLOWER & LINDSAY Attorneys for Defendant Deanna Kimmel By: .- ><., ~, "'~, , 'Li. '00 , ~,..;.. ',..;'", ',I',",.," , , ~, .., " "",'""",,,,,,,.,,,,,' " " 0 0 (J ~ 0 I; .." -0 r-'~' ;t"i n"J !...:- GJ L_ [~ C 1') r\) r:: .~U CJ " ):: i',,) ) " ~::':'J <c,. , "1 f'0 ~~-' -< KIMMEL acceptance of service tjb February 21,2000 DAVID L. RUPP, II and WANDA L. RUPP, IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA Plaintiffs v. CIVIL ACTION - LAW ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA KIMMEL, Defendants NO. 00-601 CIVIL TERM CUSTODY ACCEPTANCE OF SERVICE I accept service of the Complaint for Custody on behalf of Defendant Deanna Kimmel, and acknowledge that I am authorized to do so in the above captioned matter. FLOWER, FLOWER & LINDSAY, P.C. Attorneys for Defendant Deanna Kimmel By: c' c:! L'i-t; ~.~~ -~-;- [::( ( (:"> ~ .::i -....... "-;;",-.. ~j: c, C) ., rt1 ':,0 ~~ r-.J h) t'0 r:~~ f",) "," ~"'... .~ ~~ ~... r I, ~-"",,,...Jilia.i~II' y-..,,--,- , * tp.\J\6 L. ~0tfJ Plaintiff : IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF CUMBERLAND COUNTY, : PENNSYLVANIA v. * Er-\cb, Rv?~ Defendant : CIVIL ACTION LAW : NO. ~O \ CIVIL ~()C) : CUSTODY VISITATION ORDER OF COURT And now, this~, upon consideration of the attached complaint, it is hereby directed that the above parties and their respective ,counsel appear before ,~ :::.".,- k"\Qn.. f--' Esquire, the conciliatoT, at .3q W, U(l\\)()-\., \J"e-r \ror.,\CS~ ' Pennsylvania, on the OG- day of Mexc.\rl.. , 2000, at 'r DO A.M./ ~ for a Pre-hearing Custody Conference. At such conference, an effort will be made to resolve the issues in dispute; or ifthis cannot be accomplished, to define and narrow the issues to be heard by the court, and to enter into a temporary order. All children age five or older may be present at the conference. Failure to appear at the conference may provide grounds for the entry of a temporary or pennanent order. FOR THE COURT: By: <;1~ i\ ~. Custody Conciliator ( t'Dr) YOU SHOULD TAKE THIS PAPER TO YOUR LAWYER AT ONCE. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A LAWYER OR CANNOT AFFORD ONE, GO TO OR TELEPHONE THE OFFICE SET FORTH BELOW TO FIND OUT WHERE YOU CAN GET LEGAL HELP. THE CUMBERLAND COUNTY BAR ASSOCIATION 2 LffiERTY AVENUE CARLISLE, PA 17013 (717) 249-3166 1-800-990-9108 , :~: .'<.~, _-c . ,~ ~,^ f. ,~'H'~"~",. c2~,tJiJ ;; -'l-&(!J d 4' 't:JiJ e\l ci\.-\'-fnCE -:-~ 1\?-\.(f:':51~-~~}~\\O\P\RY '3 C" ? 1.9 r' r:t:D (1'" -.. tjU r Ct'J - , .... ~'"'U' \">"'/ C; \t.:;;:':~:P\i r<;',\D GU i\\. Uj~I;..)~' i- 'I~" 1\' '''''\I\IS\I'i ''''',1\,','\ \-'Ci 1'0 l-\'I\' \ cJ,~~zt~ '71~ ~7f; ~ ~ t'~ ~ ,d' ~~ ~- t l~Il!!!\IIfl!....,.,."h., c. ~ ",~ ~-'i!'~'.'" I ' ,,=,~UJJM. , '" _ " ",'.... --l-~ I~~~, Wllrll.../r.b, ... ,. ,. ~ '11 0 a 2000 fY'!J DAVID L. RUPP, II and WANDA L. RUPP, Plaintiffs IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA v. NO. o;a2') - d>t/! ~ ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA KIMMEL, Defendants CIVIL ACTION - LAW CUSTODY ORDER AND NOW, this _ day of January, 2000, IT IS HEREBY ORDER AND DECREED that a conciliation on the above-captioned matter will be on _ day of , 2000 @ o'clock A.M; P.M. 1. - - .1,.,' """""lr . . DAVID L. RUPP, II and WANDAL.RUPP, Plaintiffs IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA v. NO. ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA KIMMEL, Defendants CIVIL ACTION - LAW CUSTODY NOTICE YOU HAVE BEEN SUED IN COURT. If you wish to defend against the claims set forth in the following pages, you must take action within twenty (20) days after this Complaint and Notice are served, by entering a written appearance personally or by attorney and filing in writing with the Court your defenses or objections to the claims set forth against you, You are warned that if you fail to do so, the case may proceed without you and a judgment may be entered against you by the Court without further notice for any money claimed in the Complaint or for any other claim or relief requested by the Plaintiff. You may lose money or property or other rights important to you. YOU SHOULD TAKE THIS PAPER TO YOUR LAWYER AT ONCE. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A LAWYER OR CANNOT AFFORD ONE, GO TO OR TELEPHONE TIIE OFFICE SET FORTH BELOW TO FIND OUT WHERE YOU CAN GET LEGAL HELP. Cumberland County Courthouse Court Administrator 1 Courthouse Square Carlisle, PA 17013 (717) 240-6200 NICHOLAS & FOREMAN, P.C. B~~ YVO M. HUSIC, ESQ RE 4409 orth Front Street Harrisburg, P A 1711 0 (717) 236-9391 ID #74444 Attorneys for Plaintiff ,0 J :I~ ~Ilm,:ii DAVID L. RUPP, II and WANDAL.RUPP, Plaintiffs IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA v. NO. ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA KIMMEL, Defendants CIVIL ACTION - LAW CUSTODY NOTICIA Le han demandado a Usted en la corte, Si Usted quiere defenderse de estas demandas expuestas en las paginas siguientes, Usted tiene viente (20) dias de plazo al partir de la fecha de la demanda y la notificacion. Usted debe presentar una apariencia escrita 0 en persona 0 por abogado y archivar en la corte en forma escrita sus defensas 0 sus objeciones alas demandas en contra de su personal. Sea avisado que si Usted no se defiende, la corte tomara medidas y puede entrar una orden contra Usted sin previo aviso 0 notificacion y por cualquier queja 0 alivio que es pedido en la peticion de demanda. Usted puede perder dinero 0 sus propiedades 0 otros derechos importantes para Usted. LLEVE ESTA DEMANDA A UN ABOGADO INMEDATAMENTE. SI NO TIENE ABOGADO 0 SI NO TIENE EL DINERO SUFICIENTE DE PAGAR TAL SERVICIO, VAYA EN PERSONA 0 LLAME POR TELEFONO A LA OFICINA CUYA DIRECCION SE ENCUENTRA ESCRlTA ABAJO PARA A VERlGUAR DONDE SE PUEDE CONSEGUlR ASISTENCIA LEGAL. Cumberland County Courthouse Court Administrator 1 Courthouse Square Carlisle, P A 17013 (717) 240-6200 NICHOLAS & FOREMAN, P.C. B~~~ YVO M. HUSIC, ESQUIRE 4409 N Front Street Harrisburg, PA 17110 (717) 236-9391 ID #74444 Attorneys for Plaintiff . ,,,~:I, " -~ ~~ '<i'~. DAVID L. RUPP, II and WANDA L. RUPP, Plaintiffs IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA v. NO. :2wo, {..o{ CLJ T~ ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA KIMMEL, Defendants CIVIL ACTION -l.A W CUSTODY COMPLAINT FOR CUSTODY AND NOW, comes the above-named Plaintiffs, DAVID L. RUPP, II and WANDA L. RUPP, by and through their attorneys, NICHOLAS & FOREMAN, P.C. and seeks to obtain visitation rights from the above-named Defendants, ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA KIMMEL. 1. Plaintiffs are DAVID L. RUPP and WANDA L. RUPP, Husband and Wife, residing at 1601 Miller Road, Dauphin, Dauphin County, Pennsylvania 17018. ,~ cO (l~ N(,.r!:."" 2.' ~tG are the maternal grandparents of QUINTON RUPP, age 4 years, and ~r c1/ NEVIN RUPP, age 3 years. '\ 3. Defendant is ERIC D. RUPP, Father of QUINTON and NEVIN RUPP, residing at 206 Capitol Hill Road, Apartment #4, Dillsburg, York County, Pennsylvania 17019. 4, Defendant is DEANNA KIMMEL, Mother of QUINTON and NEVIN RUPP, residing at 200 Big Spring Terrace, Newville, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania 17241. 5. Plaintiffs seek partial custody and/or visitation of the following children: Quinton Rupp Age 4 yeats DOB: 10-23-95 200 Big Spring Terrace Newville, PA 17241 Nevin Rupp Age 3 years DOB: 9-5-96 200 Big Spring Terrace Newville, PA 17241 6. The children were born out of wedlock. 7. The children are presently in the custody of their natural mother, DEANNA RIMMEl, who resides at 200 Big Spring Terrace, Newville, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania 17241. Mother is now married. . ~,I, ",,--LLL*~ 8. During the past five years, the children resides continuously with their mother at various addresses, including the current address specified in this Complaint. 9. The father ofthe children, ERIC D. RUPP, is single and lives with his paramour at the address specified herein this Complaint. 10. Defendant Eric Rupp refuses to allow the children to visit or to have any contact with their grandparents because Defendant Eric Rupp alleges that Plaintiffs do not like his paramour. 11. Plaintiffs have not participated as a party or witness, or in another capacity, in other litigation concerning the custody of the children in this or another court. 12. Plaintiffs have no information of a custody proceeding concerning the children pending in a court of this Commonwealth. 13. Plaintiffs do not know of a person not a party to the proceeding who has physical custody of the children or claims to have custody or visitation rights with respect to the children. 14. Defendant Deanna Kimmel is agreeable to visitation with the Plaintiff grandparents during the Defendant father's time. 15. The best interest and permanent welfare of the children will be served by allowing the children to spend one weekend per month, Friday to Sunday, with their paternal grandparents. Respectfully submitted, NICHOLAS & FOREMAN, P.C. By: Yvonn ID No. 444 4409 North Front Street Harrisburg, P A 17110 (717) 236-9391 Attorneys for Plaintiff DATED: I~ " ~u~,,,.~ DA VlDL. RUPP, II and WANDAL.RUPP, Plaintiffs IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA v. NO. ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA KIMMEL, Defendants CIVIL ACTION - LAW CUSTODY VERIFICATION I verify that the statement made in the foregoing document is true and correct to the best of my knowledge, information and belief. I understand that the statements therein are made subject to the penalties of 18 Pa. C.S. g4904 relating to unsworn falsification to authorities. Dated: January , 2000 :P~J-.~~ DAVID 1. RUPP II VERIFICATION I verify that the statement made in the foregoing document is true and correct to the best of my knowledge, information and belief.' I understand that the statements therein are made subject to the penalties of 18 Pa. C.S. g4904 relating to unsworn falsification to authorities. ~~(~~ WANDA 1. RUPP II .' Dated: January , 2000 - ~, DAVID L. RUPP, II and WANDAL.RUPP, Plaintiffs IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA v. NO. ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA KIMMEL, Defendants CIVIL ACTION - LAW CUSTODY CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE I, YVONNE M. HUSIC, Esquire, hereby certifY that on this _ day of January, 2000, a copy of the aforementioned Complaint for Custody was esrved on Defendants by first class mail, postage prepaid upon the following persons: Eric D. Rupp 206 Capitol Hill Road, Apartment #4 Dillsburg, PA 17019 Deanna Kimmel 200 Big Spring Terrace Newville, P A 17241 Respectfully submitted, NICHOLAS & FOREMAN, P.C. By: vonne M. Husic, Esq ire up Ct ID #74444 4409 North Front Street Harrisburg, PA 17110 717-236-9391 Attorneys for Plaintiffs Dated: January ,2000 l' .~ l ,,1 'i "I ~' ~ >- j:: "'l 1t 1J" ~ 0' J. IT; c: ~ <1 " 1-': \\ u.j~-2 s;: 0<( ~ J~i (')~- S.) ~~~ ~ c:. ~~ ; ',Jc':<-' \ \I" :::1.... :3: c/) ~:~:, C1,,_...1 N \ -',,' '" :-:~;~ ~ ,--,;'"" I \!)~ ~ , " i:l6] t:J llf C~~ ~" ! c;:~ ~~ ~ j~~ ltJ u-:ia- VJ u- ~ \1,. (::) ':5 ~ () c:.:.> D V') ~1 ~ ~ p< ::i ~ ~! . . Cl) H U 0 .... ~ ~ ~ , 0 f-~ i~ ~ttl~ ~ a:~ ~ f-<I: ~ [3~enz~ u ~ ~ 11:l fJ~ Ul '0 ~ ~ B IE 0 0 j;::'b H'H H'H ~fj B o~ B:~K1 ~i p<".p 1 ~ ~~::c Z- ~!:: ~ ~ <( f- W .... ' .," ~ ~ I ~ a:a.."- c~ {IJ 0 ,to. "" . ~ H -< Z (!) . j:~ :> ~ H ..:i Cl) a: ~ . ~ o o=> Q ~~ == ..- lD ~ ~ ..-en ~~ U ii: .. a: Z <I: ::c '.,. . ' NICHOL~~ & :I:qREMAN, P.C. fEe 0;) 200011 ,< ~ "I .' DAVID 1. RUPP and WANDA 1. RUPP, Plaintiff IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA vs. 00-0601 CIVIL ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA KIMMEL, Defendant CIVIL ACTION - CUSTODY MEMORANDUM AND ORDER BEFORE HESS. 1. ORDER AND NOW, this Ie; ~ 7 day of March, 2001, the petition of the plaintiffs for visitation is DENIED. BY THE COURT, Yvonne Husic, Esquire For the Plaintiffs .AL II=, ] ~ {'\ ~ \ Carol Lindsay, Esquire For the Defendants :rlm '''''! ," " , , ~ ~ . , "' - -~' ('if:: '~, F,',i ED"O:-~'':jGE c '."'Y'U.~" r"''"^R'Y , ,'I,' rl,,;[".;....)I/1 [II i~N? 20 AN 9: 34 .">,. '~ 'r--)/" ,". , I.,;UIVlc:;I,LivvD COUNlY PCNNSYLVAN/A nT._ , ~, ' ,I~ , " -< ."'" '"~, " , " 0 .,,_~ ~,.j ,~ ',...._"'- DAVID L RUPP II, and WANDA L RUPP, Plaintiffs IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYL VANIA vs. 00-0601 CIVIL ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA KIMMEL, Defendants CIVIL ACTION - CUSTODY MEMORANDUM AND ORDER BEFORE HESS. J. David L Rupp, II and Wanda L Rupp, the plaintiffs, are the natural paternal grandparents of the two boys who are the subject ofthis proceeding, Quinton Rupp, born October 23, 1995, and Nevin Rupp, born September 5, 1996. The action was initially brought because the plaintiffs' son, Eric Rupp, would not allow his parents to have contact with the children during his periods of partial custody. A conciliation conference was held, initially, on March 22, 2000. The plaintiffs requested that the conference be rescheduled so that they could have the benefit of the attendance oflegal counsel. A second conciliation conference was rescheduled and eventually held on July 18,2000. At that time, the father of the boys, Eric D. Rupp, let it be known that he had signed consents to the adoption of the children by the mother's husband.l Those adoption proceedings have since become final and the children are now, by all appearances, happily situated in a new home with a new father. On July 24, 1998, the mother married Ryan Kimmel. Mr. Kimmel adopted Quinton and Nevin in August of2000. The boys' mother, Deanna Kimmel, has been a close friend of Mr. Kimmel's since high school. The boys' new father had considerable contact with them since 1 The natural parents had been separated for several years and were never married. l- 00-0601 CIVIL they were very young. In their new home, the children have essentially three sets of grandparents: Mr. Kimmel's father and mother, Mrs. Kimmel's mother and her husband, and Mrs. Kimmel's father and his wife. After Quinton was born, Eric and Deanna began to live together. During the time Eric and Deanna were living together, the plaintiffs, David and Wanda Rupp, would visit with their grandchildren. After approximately a year and a half, in July of 1997, the couple separated and several months later Eric moved back with his parents. He lived with them until the beginning of 1998 before moving out to live with a new girlfriend. After the parents separated, the plaintiffs had regular contact with the boys every other weekend and on Wednesday nights when Eric had partial custody. In November of 1999, visitation with the grandparents ceased. Since then, as noted above, the boys have been adopted by Mr. Kimmel. They have had no contact, whatsoever, with the plaintiffs in this matter. The provision of the law governing the rights of grandparents in a situation like this one is set out in the Domestic Relations Code as follows: 9 5312. When parents' marriage is dissolved or parents are separated In all proceedings for dissolution, subsequent to the commencement of the proceeding and continuing thereafter or when parents have been separated for six months or more, the court may, upon application of the parent or grandparent of a party, grant reasonable partial custody or visitation rights, or both, to the urnnarried child if it finds that visitation rights or partial custody, or both, would be in the best rnterest of the child and would not interfere with the parent-child relationship. The court shall consider the amount of personal contact between the parents or grandparents of the party and the child prior to the application. 2 I -", , :'1 00-0601 CIVIL The only appellate case we have found which is at all like this one is Rigler v. Treen, 442 Pa.Super. 533, 660 A.2d 111 (1995). There, as here, the parental rights of the natural father were ended. In that case, the court laid to rest the question of whether the grandparents had standing pursuant to Section 5312 where the natural parents of the subject child had not been married. The court found that there was standing, noting that the rights of grandparents are cut off only if the child is adopted by third parties who are not stepparents. Id. at 538, 660 A.2d at 113. In Rigler, the trial court had found that there was hostility between the child's mother and his paternal grandmother. An expert witness, whose testimony the lower court accepted, opined that this strained relationship would have an adverse effect on the child and therefore that visitation was not in the child's best interest and would interfere with the parent-child relationship. Id. at 536, 660 A.2d at 112. The situation in the matter sub judice is not as extreme as in Rigler. Nonetheless, in this case it is not at all clear that a grant of visitation is in the best interest of the children. A little more than a year passed between the grandparents' last contact with the boys and our hearing. The children were ages three and four, respectively, when they last spent time with the petitioners. According to Ms. Kimmel, the boys do not ask about nor mention the petitioners at any time. N.T. 73. When the mother resided with Mr. Rupp, she was very concerned with the petitioner's, Wanda Rupp's, behavior which included severe mood swings. Following Ms. Kimmel's separation from Mr. Rupp, Ms. Wanda Rupp lodged an unfounded complaint with Children and Youth Services critical of the care that Ms. Kimmel was giving to the boys. For that reason, there is an understandable level of mistrust between the mother and paternal grandmother. 3 -",,-, I " 00-0601 CIVIL Ms. Kimmel views any visitation on the part ofthe petitioners, even limited, to be highly disruptive. She observes that she has been obliged to share custody of the children during their infancy. She now desires a normal family arrangement without interference. She observes that even without allowing for the petitioners, visiting all of the grandparents is a considerable undertaking. We are being asked to re-establish a grandparent-grandchildren relationship after more than a year hiatus. Were we to do so, this would occur just as the children are settling into a new life with a new paternal family. The Rupps claim to be estranged from their son. Notwithstanding, we believe that chances are at least even that, were his parents visiting his children, Eric would attempt to reinsert himself into their lives. We cannot believe that this would be a situation conducive to the welfare of these boys. The petitioners acknowledge that the only contact to which they might be entitled is minimal; i.e., a few hours every other month. We are not satisfied that such visits would constitute time of any quality. For the foregoing reasons, we will deny the pending petition for visitation. In doing so, we are not unmindful of the immense sense ofloss which will be felt by the petitioners. That loss has occurred, moreover, by virtue of forces not of their making. This is a case, in short, which makes one aware of the limitations of even the best of legal systems. AND NOW, this ORDER I '1 ~ day of March, 2001, the petition of the plaintiffs for 4 . 00-0601 CIVIL visitation is DENIED. Yvonne Husic, Esquire For the Plaintiffs Carol Lindsay, Esquire For the Defendants :r1m I BY THE COURT, *~1d 5 _,n_ <"j I, '. ~ c~ , -"j! Q I) DAVID L, RUPP, II and WANDA L, RUPP, Plaintiff IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA V, ERIC D. RUPP and DEANNA KIMMELL Defendant 00-601 CIVIL TERM IN RE: TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS Proceedings were held before the HONORABLE KEVIN A. HESS, J., Cumberland County Courthouse, Carlisle, Pennsylvania, Courtroom Number Four, December 1, 2000. APPEARANCES: YVONNE HUSIC, Esquire For the Plaintiffs CAROL LINDSAY, Esquire For the Defendants , - ",- ~, o o INDEX TO WITNESSES FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: PAGE DAVID L. RUPP, II Direct Examination by Ms, Husic Cross-Examination by Ms, Lindsay Redirect Examination by Ms. Husic Recross-Examination by Ms. Lindsay 5 23 32 35 WANDA L. RUPP Direct Examination by Ms. Husic Cross-Examination by Ms. Lindsay Redirect Examination by Ms. Husic Recross-Examination by Ms, Lindsay 35 49 56 59 PLAINTIFFS RESTS 59 FOR THE DEFENDANT: DEANNA KIMMEL Direct Examination by Ms. Lindsay Cross-Examination by Ms. Husic Redirect Examination by Ms, Lindsay Recross-Examination by Ms. Husic 59 78 89 90 RYAN KIMMELL Direct Examination by Ms. Lindsay Examination by the Court 93 96 LINDA J. KIMMEL Direct Examination by Ms, Lindsay 97 DEFENDANT RESTS 101 * * * * * * * INDEX TO EXHIBITS FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: IDENTIFIED ADMITTED 1 Letter Dated 11/30/99 11 2 Complaint in Custody 15 3 Conciliation Report Dated 7/19/00 18 4 Supplemental Conciliation Report 9/27/00 18 5 Letter 79 6 Letter Dated May 16th 83 7 Letter 84 - ""- , ' .. o o 1 December 1, 2000 2 Carlisle, pennsylvania 3 4 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were held,) 5 THE COURT: May the record reflect that I met 6 briefly with counsel in chambers, and interestingly enough 7 each surprised the other with an issue. So we are going to 8 commence this hearing without prejudice to either side to 9 request an additional hearing, should that become necessary, 10 11 12 13 14 15 MS, HUSIC: Thank you, Your Honor. On behalf of 16 the grandparents David and Wanda Rupp, they had filed a 17 complaint for visitation -- I'm sorry, excuse me, custody, and 18 that was subsequently changed to visitation of their 19 grandchildren, and the complaint was filed on or about 20 February 2nd, 2000. 21 We believe that the grandparents do have standing 22 to proceed in this matter as the petition, and the complaint 23 was filed at a time when Mr. and Mrs, Rupp were still the 24 natural grandparents. Subsequently the children have been 25 adopted on or about August 2000, All right. The grandparents are the moving party, MS, HUSIC: Yes, sir. Good afternoon, Your Honor, THE COURT: Good afternoon. MS. HUSIC: May I make a brief opening statements? THE COURT: Certainly. 3 ,~ , <-. -L' """.j o .,.,. w 1 We are proceeding with this hearing under Section 2 5313 because grandparents do have legal standing to petition 3 for visitation of their grandchildren, In resolution of this 4 case, Your Honor, my clients are seeking limited visitation of 5 the children for a period of three to four hours every other 6 month, and including some period of time during the holidays, 7 based upon the availability and convenience of the parents. 8 And that is all my clients are seeking for for the purposes of 9 this. We feel their rights are protected because they did 10 file in a timely manner, 11 THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Lindsay, anything you want 12 to say before we get started? 13 MS, LINDSAY: Your Honor, I believe that I would 14 have to concede that these folks have standing to proceed 15 here, and we are not objecting to that or we would have done 16 so prior to this time. 17 My client's believe, however, that the standard 18 that the Court must apply is the best interest of the 19 children, and an additional standard that is contained in the 20 law, which is that the Court must determine that the granting 21 of visitation would not interfere with the parent/child 22 relationship. 23 It is an additional standard that is not applied 24 in a usual custody case, but which does apply here, And based 25 on that, my client objects to any visitation or partial , 4 ,""" --, - , , , - ~,- c o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 custody with the former grandparents of these children. THE COURT: Okay. MS. HUSIC: Your Honor, for my first witness I would like to call David Rupp. Whereupon, DAVID L. RUPP, II, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. HOSIe: Good afternoon, Mr. Rupp. Hi. Could you please state your full name for the Q A Q record, A Q A Q David L. Rupp, the second, And what is your current address, Mr. Rupp? 1601 Miller Road, Dauphin, Pennsylvania, And what relation are you to the children in this custody/visitation action? A Their grandfather, Q What are the names of the children? A Nevin and Quinton, Q And how old are they? A Four and five. Q And what relationship are you to the children's parents? 5 " ,~ I,; 11 ....L, 0> o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Eric their father is my son. Q Okay, And do you presently have any contact with your son? A No, we don't. Q When is the last time that you did have contact with your son? A November 11th, 1999, Q I wanted to back up a little bit. With the children, could you please describe for the Court the level of your interaction and involvement with the children from the time that they were born? A Urn, when Deanna and Eric lived together, we would go to visit them and they would visit us. Q If I could interrupt you. When did Deanna and Eric live together? A Just to back up a second, Deanna lived with us for a period of time and then -- Q And when was that? A That was when she was still in high school, I guess, I am not sure of the years and dates and everything. Okay. Q Were the children born? A Not at that point, After awhile Eric and Deanna got their own apartment, then Quinton was born, and they lived together, and they later on got another place in New 6 ~ _.- - "- ~ , -~ o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Cumberland, when Nevin was born, They lived in the New Cumberland town house for a while. We would see them off and on at that point, they would come visit us we would go visit them. I guess it was after about a year, year and a half then they -- again, I am not exactly sure about the dates. Eric and Deanna split up. They were never married. They split up and Eric moved home, Q Do you remember when that was? A Not the year and date, no, I don't, Q Okay, A And Eric had custody -- I'm sorry -- not custody but visitation of the boys. He had them every other weekend, and he had them every Wednesday night. So he was living with us at the time. He would pick up the boys, We would see them whenever he did, every Wednesday night and every other weekend, and then alternating holidays. That went on for about a year and a half, and Eric moved out of our place and moved in with his girlfriend. We probably didn't see them for a month or so at that point, but he started bringing them around again. He would have the same -- he had the same custody schedule at the time. He would pick them up on Wednesdays, and he would have them every other weekend. At that point normally we saw them on the weekends 7 - -~ , '.~ ,~, " o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 because I would usually pick them up Friday nights and have them Friday nights, and then we would usually have them for the another day or two, Probably 75 percent of the time we had them overnight, He would bring them into our house on a Saturday, and he would do what he wanted to do, and we would watch the boys, and they would sleep there with us, and we would do everything that we did before when Eric was living with us, So we were basically seeing them every other weekend, Q Now, at the time that the boys were staying with you when it was their father's period of custody, did the mother did Deanna know that the boys were with you? A I assumed she did, Did she ever call your house when the boys were 14 Q 15 with you? 16 A 17 Q 18 call? 19 A 20 Q Urn To the best of your recollection, did she ever She might have but I don't recall, But at that time, up until I guess November 11th, you stated, of 1999, do you recall whether or not Deanna ever raised any objections to the boys being with you and your wife? 21 22 23 24 25 A Not to my knowledge. Q Let's start with Quinton. Were you involved in 8 ~... ,',-~" ; o ~. o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Quinton's upbringing from the time that he was born? Or what type of activities did you do with him? A Everything that a normal grandfather would do from the time that they were babies, until the last time that we saw them, you know, your house is full of toys. You have all of the things there for the kids. They had their own room set up for them there, with their sleeping toys and teddy bears, things like that. As they got older we did a lot of outside activities. We loved to play baseball. We played baseball every Saturday. We had a tree fort built out back with a swing set and little fort on it, A motorized porsche that they drove around. I was the only guy in the neighborhood with an porsche in the garage, And, you know, they had tricycles there, everything else. My garage is still full of toys. As you would from a kid or -- especially a grandchild. I think a grandchild accumulates more toys than your kids do. We did everything with them, you know, we would take them -- it was different places around our area we could take them, They loved to go shopping, I mean, that's for sure. They always loved to go shopping, but we had a very good time with them, a very good relationship with them. Q And that with be true for Nevin as well as too? A Oh, absolutely. Sure, 9 ~.-~" , ^" - 0> o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q When you talked about the various activities that you did with the children, was your wife also present? A Q All of the time. And if you could please identify for the record, who your A your wife's name? My wife is Wanda Rupp, And is she here today? Q A Sure, Right beside you. Q Okay. How long have you been married to Mrs. Rupp? A Twenty-seven years. Q How did the boys get along with you and your wife? A Fine, Any time that they had a problem, my wife Wanda was the first one that they went to because they knew that she would take she would take care of it, Q I wanted to talk to you a little bit about the period of time where you and your son had a falling out, so to speak, What I wanted to ask you to identify is a letter dated November 30th of 1999, MS, HUSIC: I am showing this to counsel, Honor, if I may approach the witness. Your , THE COURT: Go ahead, (Whereupon, Plaintiffs' Exhibit No.1 was marked for identification.) 10 J " ; o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is the one this he wrote to us. BY MS. BUSIC: Q Mr, Rupp, could you please identify this letter for the record? A This was written to myself and my wife by my son Eric Rupp, and it is dated 11/30/99. Q How did you receive this? A In the regular mail. Q Can you tell us, without having to read this letter into the record, but can you tell us basically how -- what was the background of this letter? A Basically the background -- just so you understand the whole thing, we always had pictures of the boys' mother in their room and throughout our house, Eric's new girlfriend objected to this, She wanted everything removed that reminded her of Deanna. At one point in time we noticed -- well, we didn't really notice until after the fact, but these pictures started to disappear out of our house. We didn't know it at the time, but Eric was taking them and destroying them, Then in August of '99 we went to visit Eric and the boys. We had planned a trip to go over to see them, and inadvertently opened her wallet to get something out, and the boys started going through the pictures in her wallet, and 11 o c 1 there happened to be one of Deanna and the boys and Eric. And 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the boys asked a question about who was in the picture. The response from my wife was, that is your mother, And at that point Eric's new girlfriend, Crystal, got very upset about it. Left the room. Left the house. And that was the start of the whole thing of Eric not wanting to deal with us anymore, and not come in contact with his girlfriend. Q And what led to this letter? A We basically we really didn't have a whole lot to talk about after this. We saw him a few times after that. He did not indicate it was going to come to this. He was very, very -- what's the word -- urn, deceitful about this. I don't know how else to say it. He would come to our house, He would take certain things out of the house that he wanted to keep. Still brought the boys around. We even had -- the last time we saw the boys, we even had them over the weekend, that November 11th, that was the last time we had seen them, Okay? That was November 11th. Everything seem to be all right, other than the fact that the girl was pissed off at us. And then here on November 30th, this letter shows up, he is telling us all of these things about he thought that all of these pictures were put out on purpose to piss her off. He thought the deal at the house that day was done 12 o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 on purpose, And Wanda had gotten the picture out on purpose, all of that and that is not true, These were just normal things. And then this letter showed up on November 30th, He said, I am not bringing the boys around anymore. I am not bringing them around on Christmas, And he admitted in here that he had taken the pictures out of the house and destroyed them. Q And is the reason, to the best of your understanding after reading the letter, that your son was no longer going to bring the boys around until what would occur? A Well, he wanted us to get together and resolve this whole thing, and Wanda tried several times to talk to this girl but, believe me, there is no talking to this person, Q Was what he wanted to resolve, was it an issue regarding the boys' mother or what exactly was the problem? What needed to be resolved? A The issue was really between Wanda and Crystal, as to whether they could get along or not, and why these pictures were out in the house. She thought had thought they were put out on purpose, but we had them out all along, simply so the boys could be there and see them. I mean, they had been in their room the whole time. They had been in our downstairs the whole time. Q So it had to do mainly with the fact that you had pictures out of Deanna with your children in the home, 13 - ~~ - ~I ~~ ",,~ "',, .~, - ,,.,. o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Oh, sure. Yeah, Well, it was not only Deanna and the children, it was all of us. We had pictures with Deanna, me Wanda, the boys, everybody, you know, that's what disappeared, And then in their room it was Deanna and the boys? Q What efforts did you do -- or did you make after you received this letter of 11/30/99 to make contact with your son or to make arrangements to see the boys again? A A few phone calls, I called him to talk to him. And we always ended up in an argument, He would not back down on anything as far as us treating Crystal properly, as he called it. Q Okay. And what was your next action after that? A Urn, sometime I guess in January we filed action here to get visitation with the boys then. Q What I would like to do is have you identify that document. MS. HUSIC: I am showing to counsel a copy of a complaint. MS. LINDSAY: Your Honor, I will stipulate this document is in the record. MS, HUSIC: Thank you. And Your Honor, if I may approach the witness just to identify. 14 .~--" ~' . , '" ~ ~""'i>. o ~,' ~ 1 (Whereupon, 2 Plaintiffs' Exhibit No.2 3 was marked for identification.) 4 BY MS. HOSIe: 5 Q Mr. Rupp, could you please identify this document 6 for us. 7 A As I said, this is when we first tried to file for 8 visitation rights, I believe. 9 Q And at first, is it correct to say that you were 10 looking for more than visitation at the time? You wanted some 11 overnights, did you not? 12 Yes, as we had always had, that's correct, A 13 And does this complaint in custody at the time Q 14 accurately reflect what it is that you were trying to do? 15 A Yes. Q And what happened as a result of filing this, Mr, Rupp? Did you ever get a chance to see the children? A No, we haven't seen them since. Q What happened after that? What was the next step? A After the filing of this? Q After the complaint was filed, did you have 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 hearings or meetings? 23 Yes, we did~ We had a hearing in February. There A 24 wasn't anything resolved at that one. And there was another 25 one scheduled later on, which I believe was July, I believe, 15 , ~ ~r . ' 0, ~ o o 1 And there was nothing resolved there, Deanna was not at that 2 one. 3 MS. HUSIC: I wanted to identify for the record 4 two conciliation reports, and I would like to have them marked 5 as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3 and 4. 6 (Whereupon, 7 Plaintiffs' Exhibit Nos. 3 and 4 8 9 were marked for identification.) MS. HUSIC: Mr. Rupp, could you please identify 10 this document? Do you recall receiving that document, 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I received this, 12 13 MS. BUSIC: Okay. THE WITNESS: It's the summary from the 14 conciliator. 15 MS. HUSIC: And basically, what happened at that 16 conciliation? Did you go through with the conciliation? 17 MS. LINDSAY: Your Honor, I am going to object to 18 testimony regarding what happened at conciliation. Evidence 19 or statements made at conciliation are not introduced as 20 evidence by local rule. 21 Unfortunately, I didn't know counsel was going to 22 do this, so I don't have a citation of local rule, but I think 23 the whole purpose of conciliation conference is to allow for a 24 free exchange, so that statements made there are not adduced 25 into evidence at hearings. 16 o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: And I have a copy of the conciliator's report, You are aware of that. MS. LINDSAY: I understand that a conciliator's report was filed and in the file, I am not -- I am objecting to any testimony regarding the statements. THE COURT: Do we -- frankly, I have not read the report on that. MS. LINDSAY: Well, it's been a while since I have, but I remember very specifically when it was started and I wish I had one in front of me that statements made at the conciliation are not admissible to allow for that free exchange when you hope you are settling a case. It is in the nature of settlement conferences, statements not being admissible. THE COURT: Okay. We will take a break and look at that rule, unless you disagree or unless you agree that there is such a local rule. MS. HUSIC: No, I don't know if there is or not, Your Honor, but there is a report in the record. THE COURT: We will have to move on to something else, and then we will take a look at that issue. MS. HUSIC: Okay. Well, I wanted to introduce P-4, which would have been a conciliation report, which is already part of the record dated September 27th. THE COURT: That is part of the record. , 17 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 .'''<', ~- o o BY MS. HUSIe: Q Mr. Rupp, I have showed you what has been marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 4, which is the conciliation report dated September 27th of 2000. Were you and your wife present at this conciliation? A September 27? Q I'm sorry, at the July 18th conciliation. A Yes, we were at the July 18th, conference, yes. Q Was anything resolved at that time, sir? A No, no. Q At any point during the course of the process from the point that you filed the complaint in February of 2000 to present, has anything at all changed about your interest in visiting with the boys? A No, of course not. Q What type of schedule did you want to see the boys? A Well, at first we wanted to do the same as we had before, overnight on weekends. At this point we just want to see the boys whenever it is convenient, like every other month, an afternoon, you know, for an afternoon or something, that's all. Q Have you had any conversations with Deanna about that? 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 J~ o o A Yeah. On August and September, I don't remember the exact dates, I called and tried to work out something privately, so we would wouldn't have to go through with this and there was nothing resolved. Q Were you ever led to believe something might possibly be resolved? A I never got any straight answers as to yes or no. It was always wait until later, wait until later, wait until later, which lead me to think that there might be some way to do some way to do something later, However, there never was. Q adopted now A Q A Q A You understand that the children have been Sure. -- by Deanna's husband? Sure. How did you feel about that adoption? Quite frankly, because of what I know about my son, I am glad that they have a good solid home now. Q Would the fact that the adoption has taken place, Mr. Rupp, if the children were -- if visitation were to be granted to you and your wife, what steps would you take to ensure that your son wouldn't come around or the children would not be exposed to him anymore, since his parental rights were terminated? 19 o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A We don't have any contact with our son, and don't plan to have any contact with our son. He is not welcome at our house, Q And how long has it been since you've had any contact with him? Since November 11th or, no yes, the last A contact was when he picked the boys up on November 12th, 1999. I had a phone call after that or two phone calls after that, I'm sorry, that's it, Q If you were granted periods of visitation at the schedule that you were looking at every other month or on a quarterly basis, three or four hours at a time, what kind of activities would you do with the boys? A There was a lot of things that we had talked about, For instance, there's a game farm north of us. We wanted to take them up to visit the Tobias game farm. If the weather is nice, there is an Angler's Association down the road from us, where you can take small children to fish for trout, and they have a big display there, and they would really enjoy that. We had talked about taking them down to the museum where they have full-mount animal displays, you know, they would have liked that. We talked about taking them to a Senator's game, because the boys like baseball so much, you know, And Fort Hunter. is right down the road from us, They 20 - I - ,.. h o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 have a lot of things set up around the holidays at for children down at Fort Hunter. You know, things like that, Q In the meantime, at least since the period of time since you have not seen the boys since about November 11th of 1999, what have you done to attempt to keep communication open or to have contact with the boys? A We my wife always sends cards on every holiday, YOU know, just to let them know, you know, we are still here. Q And have you had a reply to any of those cards? A No, no reply. Q Other family members on your side of the family, what -- do you have family that is close by or that would be involved if the boys were to visit? Do they have cousins and aunts and uncles, grandparents from other sides of the families? A Sure. I have two sisters, both married with families. They ask about the boys. Wanda has two sisters and a brother, all of those families ask about the boys. There are small children involved that used to play with the boys, they all ask about them. Yeah, everyone on both sides asks about them, Q One of the questions I wanted to ask you was a statement that Ms. Lindsay discussed in her opening statement regarding visitation rights and grandparents' right to visitation states --if you recall, she stated the best , 21 'I ~ ~ - o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 interest of the children, and then also that the relationship would not interfere with the parent/child relationship. Do you recall Miss Lindsay talking about that? A Yes, I recall. Q And I wanted to ask you, and it's sort of an impromptu question now, but from your perspective, is there anything that you could envision or that you could foresee would interfere with the relationship between yourself and the boys' mother or the boys' father now? A No. We've always encouraged the boys to respect their parents, As I said earlier, I am glad that they are in the family situation that they are in now. Okay, And as I said before, also, we always had pictures of the boys' mother up there so that they would not -- you know, always have something familiar in their bedroom, So, no, there isn't anything that I wouldn't support about this boys and the boys living there, I think it is a great thing. Q Have you ever met Deanna's husband or now the boys new father? A Yes. Q And how do you get along with him? A Fine. MS. HUSIC: I have nothing else for this witness, Your Honor. 22 -- o - "I '0 ~ :1 , '~'~'\ ~ - < () 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. LINDSAY: Sir, was it you or your wife who reported Deanna Kimmel to Cumberland County Children and Youth Services? THE WITNESS: MS. HUSIC: THE COURT: MS. HUSIC: THE COURT: MS. HUSIC: THE COURT: That was my wife. Objection, Your Honor, What is the nature of the objection? It goes beyond the scope of direct. Overruled. That area was not probed at all. Overruled. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. LINDSAY: Q Sir, was it you or your wife? A My wife, Q Were you there when she made the report? A No, I wasn't. Q Were you involved in any of the follow-up procedures with Cumberland County Children and Youth Services? A No. Q Sir, would you outline to the Court your wife's psychiatric history? MS. HUSIC: Objection, Your Honor, hearsay at this time, THE COURT: Well, she is not asking for hearsay yet. 23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 o o MS. HUSIC: Well, Your Honor, then I would object on the grounds of irrelevancy. THE COURT: Overruled, BY MS. LINDSAY: Q Sir? A My wife has been treated for depression for a long time, as long as -- I mean, six or seven years. Q Has she been hospitalized in the past? A Sure. Q How many times? A Three times. Q And for what kind of duration? A Um, twice for two weeks, once for a month, I believe. Q And does she have a diagnosis that you know about? A Yeah, depression, bipolar disorder. Q And was that marked by -- during the time that you all lived together -- by extreme sadness and then also hyperactivity, that kind of thing? A Yeah. Q Is it also marked by anger and acting out against people, that kind of? A No, there wasn't so much anger, no. Q When was the last hospitalization? A I have to think, A few months ago. 24 >:' o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q A few months ago? A Yeah, two months ago, maybe, Q For how long a period was that hospitalization? A About a week, Q You remember Deanna requesting medical records, hospital records of your wife? A Yes. Q And where was the last hospital -- those were never produced, am I correct? 10 A I can't answer that. 11 Q You didn't send them to counsel? 12 A No. 13 Q Where was the last hospitalization, did you say? 14 A Where? 15 Q Yes. 16 A What hospital? 17 Q Yes. 18 A The Polyclinic Hospital. 19 Q And before that, when was the more previous 20 hospitalization just before this one a couple of months ago? 21 A I want to say February of '98, maybe, I am 22 guessing but I think that's when it was. 23 Q And how long was that one more? 24 A I think that was two weeks. 25 Q Is your wife on medication at the present time? 25. "~ '~'ol - ~ I o 0'.', " 1 A Yeah. 2 Q And is she in after-care from her last 3 hospitalization? 4 A I am not sure I understand what after-care is. 5 Q I don't know what would have been prescribed for 6 her. Like, follow-up treatment with a therapist or a group 7 kind of? 8 A She goes about once every two or three months now. 9 But no on-going work with groups or a therapist? Q 10 A No. 11 Urn, do you know what medications she is on? Q 12 Urn, paxil, that's it, paxil once a day, A 13 Sir, why was your wife hospitalized a couple of Q 14 months ago? 15 From my understanding, an explanation from the A 16 doctor is when you are treated for depression, medications 17 don't last -- don't work very long, and then you have to be 18 rediagnosed and given other medications or other treatments. 19 Okay? 20 I am asking you, clinically, from what you Q 21 observed at home, what caused her to feel that she needed to 22 go to the hospital? 23 MS, HUSIC: I am going to object to the term 24 clinical. This is a lay witness, and I don't know that he can 25 make a clinical comment. 26 :-~ -,~' "', I -" " '~ "," ,.', o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: She is just asking what he saw, what happened. BY MS. LINDSAY: Q What signs and conditions did you see that made it seem to you a good idea to go to the hospital, if it did? A Depression. Q I mean, what? How do you know your wife is depressed? A When someone is down, Q Was it of the manic sort also? A No. Q No, just the down kind of depression? A Yes. Q Sir, the only time that Deanna Kimmel lived with you was before the birth of the boys; is that right? A Uh-huh, Q And you said that your son came back to live with you at some point in time. When was that? A They lived together -- I am -- again, please don't hold me to the time frame. They lived together maybe two years, a year and a half, two years, and then they split up and Eric moved back home with us. Q When was that when he came back into your house? A I can't tell you what year it was, Q And did he stay eighteen uninterrupted months at 27 - "=,,'-0,",,,", ' 0.'___ o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 your house? A Somewhere around that time, yes. Q Did he go to live with people periodically, other people periodically? A No. When he left, then, he left and went to live with his girlfriend. Q That is Crystal; is that right? A Yes, Q But before that, isn't it true that he also stayed for months at a time with other friends of his? A I honestly don't remember. Q Okay. A After he split up with Deanna, he might have lived with somebody else for awhile. I am not sure about that. Q So he might not have been living with you for a month a year and a half. Am I right? A It's possible. Q And at no time did he live with you, did he have primary custody of the children? A No, he never had primary custody, Q And certainly, you never had primary custody of the children? A No, Q Sir, isn't it true that Deanna Kimmel -- strike that -- that your wife often criticized Deanna's parenting of 28 o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the boys? A Urn, you would have to be a bit more specific. Q Wasn't there a time when she was fairly vocal in criticizing the way that Deanna took care of the boys? A Yes, Q Didn't she send messages with Eric regarding the boys' cleanliness? A Yes. Q And there were other matters about which she found Deanna inadequate mother, Am I correct? A That's correct, Q What were those things? A In the period of time after Deanna left Eric and before she was married, there was a period of time when the boys would come to us, they were very dirty. They would have medicine to take, and they would not be taking the medicine because the amount of the medicine in the bottles would not change until the time we sent it home until the time we got it back, We would get the boys over to the house, the first thing they would go for a bath, that they didn't feel good, they didn't feel clean. That is the kind of things that prompted us to make comments. Q Okay. And those comments were made to Eric with the intent of him passing them onto Deanna? 29 " ~, o CD 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Yes, Q Sir, you filed the complaint that you have introduced as, I believe, your first exhibit, Do you have a copy of that complaint up there in front of you there? A Yes. Q Excuse me, it's Plaintiffs' 2? A Is this the one, Complaint for Custody? Q Yes, sir, I would like you to look at Paragraph 14. Would you read Paragraph 14 to the Court, please? A Defendant Deanna Kimmel is agreeable to visitation with Plaintiff, grandparents, during the Defendant's, father's, time. Q In this complaint, you sued Eric and Deanna, did you not? A Yes. Q Before you filed this complaint, did you call Deanna and ask her if she was agreeable to visitation with the Plaintiff, grandparents, during the Defendant, father's time? A No. Q But you stated in the complaint that it was acceptable to her. A I don't remember if I stated that or not in the complaint. Q That is what Paragraph 14 says, isn't it? A I am not sure. I am not sure I understand. It , 30 ..= " --,^' , o ... v 1 says, Is agreeable. I guess what I meant by that was when 2 Eric had custody or visitation of the boys, that he was 3 bringing them around to see us, Okay? That is what that 4 means, 5 But I think you also testified that you don't know Q 6 whether Deanna knew that he was doing that or not; is that 7 right? 8 I can't specifically say I knew that A That's true, 9 Deanna knew that they were at our house all of the time, 10 that's true. 11 And before you filed the complaint, you didn't Q 12 call her and ask her if it was okay. You just filed a 13 complaint against her. Right? 14 A uh-huh, 15 Sir, was your wife hospitalized on one occasion as Q 16 a result of an incident in the boys' presence? 17 Yeah, I think so. A 18 Did she have a seizure of sort at the dinner table Q 19 one night? 20 Yeah, there was one period of time when she was A 21 given a mixture of medication she should not have been given, 22 and did cause her severe problems. The doctor since 23 discovered that, and has removed that medication from her 24 schedule, and everything is very good now. 25 In fact, it involved two doctors that were not 31 - o o 1 talking to one another, And we, in fact, just for your 2 information right now are trying to sue that other doctor. You are. An ambulance was called on that and your wife was taken out on a stretcher, I 3 Q 4 occasion, 5 assume? 6 A 7 8 9 10 Yes. Yes, MS. LINDSAY: I have no other questions, MS. HUSIC: Briefly on redirect, Your Honor, THe COURT: Certainly. REDIRECT EXAMINATION 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS. HOSIC: Q I want to mark as Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 5, Mr. Rupp, do you recognize this letter that I am showing you, what has been marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5? It's correspondence dated January 20th of 2000, Can you confirm for the record that you received a copy of this letter? That is your copy sent to Deanna Kimmel regarding grandparent visitation? A Yes, Q And is -- now, you filed the complaint after this; is that correct? A I believe so, Q The complaint is filed February 2nd? A Yeah, I believe so, yes. Q This letter is dated January the 20th, and is it 32 ~., o o 1 accurate the following statement, the second sentence that 2 states, I understand that they, meaning you, the grandparents, 3 have discussed this matter, that is the visitation with you to 4 Deanna, and that you are agreeable to visitation? Is that 5 correct, Mr, Rupp? 6 MS. LINDSAY: Oh, Your Honor, Objection, 7 Your Honor. That question was already asked and Mr. Rupp 8 acknowledges that he hasn't made any contact nor did he know 9 whether she was agreeable or not. 10 MS. HUSIC: Well, Your Honor, I am raising this in 11 order to refresh the Plaintiff's memory of this. 12 THE COURT: You can rehabilitate your own 13 witnesses under the new rule. Go ahead 14 BY MS. BUSIC: 15 Q Go ahead, Mr. Rupp, Does this refresh your 16 recollection now that you have had conversations with Deanna 17 prior to filing the complaint? 18 A I have to be honest with you, I don't remember. 19 Q Okay. And do you remember, Mr. Rupp, whether I 20 told you that I had a conversation with Deanna following 21 sending this letter? Do you recall that, Mr. Rupp? 22 A Yes, I do recall that. 23 24 25 Q So, is it your testimony, now, statement in the complaint is accurate? that the -- the A Yes. 33 - .' - o . 1 Q Mr. Rupp, I wanted to ask you a few questions. 2 You were asked extensively about Mrs, Rupp's psychiatric state 3 of mind. At any time would you be able to say that she was in 4 an impaired state or an incapacitated state when the boys were 5 present? 6 A The only time anything happened when the boys were 7 present was, as I just mentioned, she was given an almost 8 lethal mixture of drugs she should not have been given, which 9 caused her to become unconscious. And that's the only thing 10 it did to her at the time. 11 12 Now that was a medication mix-up, Right? That was a medication problem. And as I said, we Q A 13 are trying to resolve that with the other doctor through 14 lawyers, There was lack of communication between two doctors, 15 basically, is what it boiled down to, 16 Q I am not interested in that, Mr. Rupp. But I am 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 trying to get at a year from you, as to when the physical reaction to the medication mix-up occurred, What year was that? A I think it was 1998, that's when the problem started, Q 1998. Okay, All right. Now, the period of hospitalization -- well, you know what, I am going to strike that, I am going to get that from another witness. Actually, I have nothing else, Mr. Rupp? 34 .t -,- o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: Any recross? MS. LINDSAY: Just briefly. RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. LINDSAY: Q Mr. Rupp, are you aware that Eric and Deanna agreed that the children should not be left in your custody in considering of your wife's condition. A No, I never heard that before. Q Eric never told you that? A No. MS, LINDSAY: No other questions. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: MS. HUSIC: Thank you. You may step down. Thank you. Your Honor, my next witness is Wanda Rupp. Whereupon, WANDA L. RUPP, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. HOSIC: Q Good afternoon, Mrs. Rupp. A Hi. Q Could you please state your full name and your address for the record? A My name is Wanda L. Rupp, My address is 1601 35 . '..;'~ o . 1 Miller Road, Dauphin. 2 Q And is your husband here today, Mrs. Rupp? 3 A Yes, he is. 4 Q And he just fini shed testifying; is that correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Do you have a son Eric Rupp? 7 A Yes, I do, 8 Q And where is Eric today? 9 A Eric lives somewhere in Carlisle with his 10 girlfriend Crystal. Eric had children? Yes, he did, two sons. When is the last time -- you heard your husband's Correct? That I seen them? Yes. When is the last time that you saw the boys? November 11th, 1998. Okay. Mrs, Rupp, I am going to ask you some questions that I would like for you to explain for the record, and to have the judge hear the testimony directly 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 testimony. 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 different 20 21 22 23 24 25 from you. The first issue that was raised by counsel is a Children and Youth matter, Did you make a report to Children and Youth? A Yes, I did. 36 ; ~ -, " ~ . ~~~. ~--:"e, o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Okay. Please explain why you did that, A When we got the children, when Eric and Deanna were split up, a couple of times they came with a couple of bruises, and I was in question about that. Also, when we did get them, they were dirty. We could tell that they hadn't been bathed, and the majority of the time they came, they were sick, A lot of them were ear infections, bronchial -- bronchitis and things like that. In fact, one year I was even hospitalized from taking care of them, I got it. Q And why did you feel the need to report to Children and Youth as opposed to talking to your son or to their mother? A I didn't think I would get anywhere with Deanna herself because we weren't on very good terms after the split up, There was a lot of bitterness and I understand. And I did it mainly for the sake of the grandchildren. I was concerned for them, I wanted them to be taken care of the best that they could be. Q What resulted as -- what resulted from the Children and Youth report? Do you know? A A lot of bitterness, They did look into it, I did notice afterwards they weren't coming to us the way they were before, and things were being looked into. Q Was the abuse founded or unfounded? Do you 37 ..... ~ .- .-' '~ ",.;~ - ~ c o . 1 2 3 4 5 remember? A It was unfounded. Q And after that, that caused a lot of tension between you and Deanna? A Well, she had harsh feelings toward me, and I can 6 understand why. My son played a lot intermediate -- playing 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 us against one another, Q How did he do that? A There were a lot of times that I would make comments, and like for instance I would go out and buy them shoes, and I didn't care what was going on between Eric and Deanna, I wanted shoes on their feet that fit. And there was a time that he had a pair of shoes Nevin did he walked around stumbling. I noticed she took the shoes off and threw them. I don't know what was said to her, I don't know. I just wanted those children to have shoes on their feet that fit, Q Well, after this report to Children and Youth Services, were you and Deanna ever able to get back on the right track again? A No. Q You never rebuilt your relationship? A No, Q Did you ever speak to her? A If I seen her in passing, I would speak to her. I 38 - ..J 1.- - ,'-' , o o 1 always said, Hi. I was proud of what she had done. She was a 2 good mother. She has a good family right now, I couldn't ask 3 for more as far as her husband. Ryan has always been there 4 for those kids, more than what my son has. And I have to give 5 him credit. It takes a heck of a man to want to adopt 6 somebody else's children. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q Now, there were a number of questions asked to your husband, which I think are more appropriately asked to you regarding the status of your depression and various hospitalizations, So let's talk about that, Mrs, Rupp, a little bit. Hospitalizations, you said that there were two in the past and one recently. So were there a total of three hospitalizations? A Yes. Q What years were those, the initial two? A There was one for a period of two weeks. How long was that, Mrs. Rupp? 19 A Two weeks. 20 Q I'm sorry, What year was that? 21 A My depression started about six years ago. 22 Q Was there any particular trigger? 23 A It was a combination of things, childhood 24 25 neglect -- urn, what would you say? I was abused as a child. I had put these things down and padded them, and never wanted 39 ,~ ~ o o 1 to deal with them, and they came out when my body was ready, 2 and I had to deal with it. 3 Q Mrs. Rupp, as a result of the depression, were 4 you or are you in anyway incapacitated from working? 5 A~. 6 Q Do you presently work? Q A Q A school. Q A Q A Q A Q A 40 - I, o . 1 give up. 2 Q 3 years? 4 A 5 Q How long did you have the beauty shop? Number the I'd say about close to 20. Twenty years. And you stopped that business after 6 you were diagnosed with depression? A Yes. Q The second hospitalization was for one month? A Yes. Q Was there a trigger that brought that about? A Simply the depression itself. I go in these low 7 8 9 10 11 12 swings, 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Now, is your diagnosis correct? Are you diagnosed with bipolar? A Yes, I am. Q Is there any other diagnosis besides that? A No, Q The medication that you are currently on, it was stated by your husband it is paxil? A Yes, it is. Q And with what frequency do you take that? A Once a day. Q You stated that your husband testified that about a week ago -- I'm sorry. Strike that approximately two months ago, you were hospitalized? 41 -=~~ >.', ," -~ o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Yes. Q For one week; is that correct? A Yes. Q Any particular trigger or event that brought that on? A The medications would only last with me for six months, and I would swing down, and I since then started shock treatments, and it's like it has given me my life back. They have helped very much. Q Now, do you go to therapy or counseling on a regular basis? A Yes, I do, every three months, Q Every three months you go, Nothing more frequently than that? A Unless I need him, I call him, Q And your -- is it correct to say that your psychiatrist, at least at this time, has medically told you that you don't need to go except every three months? A Yes. Q Okay. How are you feeling, Mrs, Rupp? A Good, Q Now, I wanted to ask you about the period of time where the boys -- I guess after Deanna and Eric split up and Eric had partial periods of custody, is it correct that he had the boys sometimes during the week and every other weekend? 42 - tdIllRlilllllllllllj!;';! o o 1 A Yes, it is. 2 Q Okay. Who took care of the kids when they came to 3 your home? 4 A He and I both did. 5 Q I'm sorry. When you say he, what do you mean? 6 A My son and I, Eric. 7 Q And was your husband there also? 8 A Yes, when he came home from work he was there, We 9 all enjoyed them, 10 Q Okay. So was there any period of time that you 11 were alone with the children? 12 There was a lot -- when Deanna became pregnant A 13 with the second child, we would often go over and try to take 14 Quinton off her hands because they were so close, and we had 15 Quinton quite a lot. 16 Q And you say you went over to take the boys off her 17 hands. Did you go to Deanna's house to get the children? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A To the apartment. Q To Deanna's apartment? A The townhouse where her and Eric lived. Q Well, wherever they lived, did she have any objection to having you -- A Not that I know of, Q Did she -- well, what I am asking is, did she tell you, No, I don't want you to take the boys? It was Quinton at 43 h_~ ,;^. "-- ~~ " ,~ o . 1 the time. 2 A 3 Q 4 A Yes, Did she ever No. No, she didn't. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q Now, during this period of time -- I wanted to tie this together -- you said that you were diagnosed with depression six years ago. That is roughly 1994? A Yes, Q So from '94 to present you also had periods of custody, regular visitation or whatever, with the boys during that period of time? A Yes, we did, Q And during that period of time, you also said that 14 you were alone with the boys? 15 A Yes. 16 Q How long were you alone with the boys? 17 A Sometimes it would be in the afternoon until my 18 husband got home. We would have them, Sometimes we would 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 keep them overnight. It all depended on what the parents wanted. We kept them. Q Well, most of the time that the boys were with you, were you and your husband there together? Were either one of you alone with the boys or how did that work? A The majority of it was myself with them, for the most part. 44 ~,~ ~ o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q Mrs, Rupp, I realize this is somewhat sensitive, but if I can ask you, at any time you were with the boys, did you ever experience any periods where you felt that you were incapacitated or you were unable to take care of the boys when you were alone with them? A The only time that happened is when the incident happened with me that I had a mixture of drugs that shouldn't have been given to me and I passed out. I found myself going in and out of consciousness. Q Were you alone with the boys at that time? A Um, no, my son was there with the children also. , Q And that was the episode that you passed out or had a seizure from the medication mix-up. Was that the last and only time that that ever occurred? A That is the only time that I can recall. Q Mrs. Rupp, what are you looking for out of this hearing? A I just want to spend some time with my grandchildren. I don't want to take anything away from what they have now. They've been through enough, But if it means I had to give them up, and I couldn't see them, I would do that, if it meant not hurting them. I don't want to do anything to hurt the kids. Q Mrs. Rupp, in the beginning of the opening 25 statement, Miss Lindsay stated a standard that the Court would 45 /-, _."~ .0 o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 be considering, one being the best interest of the children, Do you recall hearing that? A Yes. Q And also the other standard she stated that in addition to best interest, that there would not be interference with the parent/child relationship if visitation were to occur. Do you feel that there would be any interference, from your perspective, with Deanna and her husband and now the boys' father if visitation were to occur? A I don't feel that there would be. I would not do anything to ever jeopardize anything there, Q The Children and Youth report, what year did you make that report, Mrs, Rupp? A That would be -- Quinton was almost two, Two, two and a half. So that would be about 1996, '97. Q That is a long time ago, isn't it? A Yes. Q what activities would you do with the boys if you had them, if you had the periods of visitation, Mrs. Rupp? A Take them to visit their own relatives, people on my side, people on his side, Play ball with them. They have the fort outside, Taking them down to Candy Lane, Just simple things that you do with your grandchildren, show them some of the world. 46 ~~" I;, ^ ",~ o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Do you have any concerns now about your depression that you would not be able to participate with the boys if they came to spend time with you with your husband? A If I would ever feel that I had a problem, I would never pick those children up, I would always put them first. I know now when my bad time is, I know when I go into these depressed moods, what to do, and I know what to look for myself. Q Mrs. Rupp, do you recall whether we ever provided anything to opposing counsel regarding the status of your mental health? A No. Q Do you recall that we provided a letter during the conciliation? A Conciliation? Pertaining to me? Q Uh-huh. Remember -- do you recall the conciliations with Dawn Sunday? A Yes. Q Okay. And in the course of those conciliations, do you recall whether we provided a letter to the conciliator regarding a report from your doctor regarding your mental health? A Yes, MS, HUSIC: If Your Honor would just give me a moment. Your Honor, I believe that may have inadvertently 47 " .~' < >' , , o 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 come out of my file, but I would like the opportunity to leave the record open to provide -- it's a written statement that we have it was provided to Dawn Sunday, a report from Mrs. Rupp's psychiatrist, What I will do in the interim, Your Honor, is leave the record open. BY MS. RUSIe: Q Mrs, Rupp, who is that letter from? Do you recall the letter I am referring to without showing it to you? A It was from Deanna -- lawyer -- are you talking about my doctor? Q Do you recall a letter that you obtained from your A Yes, Dr. picciotto. Q And to the best of your recollection, Mrs. Rupp, and we are going to use that for the hearing purposes, do you recall that what letter stated? MS. LINDSAY: Your Honor, I am going to object. We not only have the letter, but it's hearsay in any case. THE COURT: Well, yes, it is. And -- but in another way, it isn't. It goes to what she has been representing all along, about her own mental health, and why she has made these statements. So to that extent it goes to her state of mind and it is not hearsay, and I am going to let it in for that limited purpose. MS, HUSIC: Yes, Your Honor. 48 -~" o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 MS, HUSIC: Yes. 8 THE COURT: Okay, 9 BY MS. HUSIC: THE COURT: what was in the letter shape? MS, HUSIC: THE COURT: from her doctor. The last word she got, I don't know was that she was in good shape or bad In good shape. That is the last thing she's heard 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Mrs. Rupp, is that accurate? Did your psychiatrist state to the best of your recollection that you were stable? A Yes, he did, Q And we are going to leave the record open for that letter to be submitted. Is there any other reason that you can think of, Mrs. Rupp, that would impair your ability to spend quality visitation time with the children? A No. Q Thank you very much. MS, HUSIC: I have nothing more. THE COURT: This would be a good point probably at which to take a recess, Take a brief break, (Whereupon, a recess was taken at 2:42 p,m,) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. LINDSAY: , 49 . . o o 1 Q Mrs. Rupp, that physician of yours, the doctor of 2 yours about whom you were speaking, is it Dr. Picciotto? 3 4 5 6 7 A Dr. picciotto, Q Dr. Dr. picciotto. Do you remember when he gave you that letter that you brought to the conciliation? A No more than a year ago. Q It was before your most recent hospitalization. 8 Am I right? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And at that time he said -- to the best of your 11 recollection -- that your condition was stable; is that right? 12 A Correct. 13 Q Mrs. Rupp, you know that Deanna Kimmel was asking 14 you for authority to review your medical records, 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A Q Yes, And that wasn't forth coming. Am I correct? You haven't given her that authority? A I personally didn't care one way or another. Q Okay, Do you have any objection, now, if your medical -- A No, ma'am. 22 MS. HUSIC: Objection, Your Honor. I would like 23 an opportunity to consult with my client before she answers 24 that question or we get into anymore detail. We personally 25 never discussed nor saw any evidence in writing or otherwise , 50 - . ~- - ~' , o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 asking us for Mrs. Rupp's medical or psychiatric records, and until I have an opportunity to discuss that with my client, I am going to ask that she not answer that, THE COURT: Okay. MS. LINDSAY: Mrs. Rupp, did you -- do you have a beauty -- a beauticians license? Is that what it's called in Pennsylvania? THE WITNESS: Yes, I do MS. LINDSAY: And do you have a handgun permit? THE WITNESS: No. MS. HUSIC: Objection, Your Honor. Relevancy. THE COURT: I do too, And I am a pretty good dad, MS. LINDSAY: My question is whether the permit was ever revoked, Your Honor. THE COURT: MS. LINDSAY: Oh, okay. Was the permit for your land gun -- did you ever have a handgun permit in the past? MS. HUSIC: Objection, Your Honor, relevancy. THE COURT: I don't know whether it is relevant or not because it was revoked because she pointed it at one of the boys -- MS. HUSIC: Your Honor, I just feel it is argumentative. THE COURT: I will have to ask for an offer, MS. HUSIC: I guess I would ask for an offer too, 51 o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Your Honor. THE COURT: Let's do it that way. MS, LINDSAY: Your Honor, I have information from my client that Mrs. Rupp had a handgun permit, which was revoked as a result of her condition. THE COURT: Okay. MS. LINDSAY: And I have no more -- THE COURT: And there will be nothing after that. Let's just ask her if that is so. BY MS. LINDSAY: Q Is that the case, Mrs. Rupp? A No, ma'am. Q That you never had the permit that it was never revoked? A It was never revoked. Q Urn, with regard to your present treatment, it is confined to once every three months, am I correct; is that what your testimony was? A I go seek treatment from the doctor. I see him once every three months. Q Every three months, And is that shock treatment or is that just a follow-up kind of care with him? A That is a follow-up care with him. Q Okay. Now, you testified that in 19 -- well, let me strike that, if I were to suggest to you that that report 52 ~~ ~ , , ~ l-~':'-j o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 to Children and Youth Services was made in 1998, do you think that that could be correct? A No, Q You think it was made when? A Earlier, Q Earlier than that. And I think it was your if many that subsequent to that complaint to Children and Youth Services that, urn, you couldn't really talk to Deanna very well; is that correct? A Correct. Q And prior to your compliant to Children and Youth Services, it's your testimony, I think, that you couldn't really talk to Deanna very well. Am I correct? A Yes. Q And, in fact, Deanna and her son -- your son, lived with you all for a period of time before either one of the children were born, Am I correct? A Correct. Q It was for a few months' period; is that right? A Correct, 21 Q And isn't it true that you asked them to leave 22 your home? 23 A Yes, I did. 24 Q And, in fact, even during that period of time when 25 they lived with you before the birth of the children, you and 53 ~ " , '.. ~ .' ,. ..-.,,< 0, . 1 the mother didn't get along very well? 2 A I'd say that, yes. 3 Q It's true, during that time, that you were 4 critical of her. Am I right? 5 A Through my son was critical. I seen things, pros 6 and cons, on both sides, 7 8 9 Q But isn't it not true that you shared his criticism of Deanna Kimmel? I didn't really take sides. I seen pros and cons. A 10 They were very young, she was, and he was very immature. 11 Q And those pros and cons, those cons you saw about 12 Deanna, you didn't mind telling her about. Am I right? 13 A I didn't really want to hurt anybody's feelings, 14 It wasn't for me to tell her. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A But you did, nonetheless. I asked them both to leave to really throw them into a world of reality, Q But isn't it true, Mrs. Rupp, is what I am askin you, that you have openly criticized Deanna Rupp since, really, you knew her -- or Deanna Kimmel now -- since you knew her? A I had nothing against her at first, I had nothing against either one of them. If I have to do it allover again, I would have never reported her, Q After you made your report to Children and Youth 54 .- t' 1.- .," ~~ , o . 1 Services, you say it was in 1997, I think it was your 2 testimony that the children stopped coming around as much; is 3 that right? 4 5 6 7 8 9 A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE) Q The children had not come as often. A Before. Q After the report to children's services? A That is incorrect. Q After the report to children's services, the 10 children still came to your house with great regularity? 11 12 13 14 15 16 A That was when -- I'd say, No, they didn't. Q They didn't come as often? A As often, right, because he was -- Q Because of what? A He was preoccupied elsewhere. Q Okay. And when did it falloff from every other . 17 weekend to once a month or once every couple of months after 18 that? 19 A It was pretty regular up until. We had the 20 falling out with Crystal. Q Okay. And -- but I am asking about the period of time between the time that you made a report to children's services A Dh-huh. Q -- and the falling out with Crystal. Isn't it 21 22 23 24 25 55 -, .' ~ ~ ~ - lliL o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 true that after you made the Children and Youth report that the children stopped coming with as great a regularity? A Oh, yes, Wednesdays diminished, and eventually you didn't see them. They phased them out. Q Okay. And this is between the time of the report and the time that you and your son just stopped seeing one another at all together; is that right? A Yes. Q So that during that period of time were the kids coming not once every other weekend, but maybe once in a while; is that right? A Right. Q And that's from about 1997, you believe? A Yes. Q And if I am not mistaken, back in 1997, these children would have been two and less than two? A Yes. MS. LINDSAY: No other questions. MS. HUSIC: Brief on redirect, Your Honor. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. RUSIC: Q Mrs. Rupp, if you were so critical of Deanna, why did you carry pictures of her and the boys in your wallet, and have pictures of Deanna in your house? A I kept them in the house to make the boys feel 56 -. I o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 comfortable, and it had nothing ever bad to say about the mother. And I never wanted them to feel left out. We would always talk about, There's mommy. I would say, Yes. Isn't she pretty? And they would remark. And I did it strictly for the children's sake. Q Do you have anything against Deanna today? A No, I think she has done very well for herself. Q I wanted to just clarify a little bit about the frequency of which you had visitation with the boys. I guess after the Children and Youth report, at some point your son, Eric, came to live with you? A Yes. Q Roughly, do you know what month and year that was, to the best of your recollection? A I think it was in the fall, yes. Q Fall of? A Of '98. He called me up crying, that's when she left him. Q Okay. From the fall of '98 until November 11th of 1999, at what frequency to the best that you can recall, did the boys come to your home? A Whenever he seen them, we seen them. Q Was it during the week or did that stop? During that year A It started out Wednesday and we got every other 57 - - ~ ~"""M o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 week, it would be Friday, Saturday and Sunday night he would take them back. And then as the relationship between him and Crystal progressed, then it slowed down and stopped eventually. Q Okay. I am not looking at the end of it, but during the period of, say, the fall of '98 through November of '99, is it correct that you saw the boys, basically every other weekend? A Yes. Q Which is when Eric had them? A Yes. Q And that was consistent and regular every other weekend? A Yes. Q Did you see them during the week? A At the beginning, yes. Q Okay. And that stopped? A Yes. Q Did it stop because Eric was not getting the boys during the week or did Deanna stop the boys from coming to see you? A It was because of Eric he just felt he couldn't do it anymore. Q Nothing further, Mrs. Rupp. Thank you very much. 58 ........:1 ., -~ -" o A 'V 1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 2 BY MS. LINDSAY: 3 Q Mrs. Rupp, I have another question. To the best 4 of your recollection, how long was Eric going out with Crystal 5 before November of '99 when he cut off his relationship with 6 you? 7 A Maybe two or three months. 8 Q Thank you. 9 THE COURT: You may step down. 10 MS. HUSIC: Your Honor, at this time I have no 11 other witnesses. Depending where this hearing proceeds to, I 12 would like to reserve the opportunity to call Mrs. Rupp's 13 psychiatrist if necessary, or to submit a deposition. Other 14 than that, I do not anticipate any other witnesses, Your 15 Honor. 16 THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Lindsay. 17 MS. LINDSAY: Your Honor, I will call Deanna 18 Kimmel. 19 Whereupon, 20 DEANNA L. KIMMEL, 21 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION 23 BY MS. LINDSAY: 24 Q Deanna, would you give your full name and address 25 for the record. 59 . : t~ < ~"~ o o 1 2 A Deanna L. Kimmel, 200 Big Spring Terrace, Newville, Pennsylvania. 3 Q Are you married, Deanna? 4 A Yes. 5 Q What is your husband's name? 6 A Ryan Kimmel. 7 Q When were you and Ryan married? 8 A July 24th, 1998. 9 Q And do you have two boys now? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And do you and Ryan also have a child? 12 A Yes. 13 Q How old is your other child? 14 A My daughter just turned two. 15 Q And the two boys that you had, they were fathered 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 by Eric Rupp. Am I correct? A Correct. Q Would you give their names and dates of birth? A Quinton Rupp -- well, Quinton Kimmel, 8/23/95 and Nevin Kimmel, 9/5/96. Q Those boys were adopted this year? A Correct. Q By Ryan. A Correct. Q And the adoption was filed to Number 60 Adoptions 60 ~.~ . - , ,,' ~' .- <- o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2000. Am I right? A Correct. Q Do you remember the day that they were adopted? A August 2nd. Q 2000? A Uh-huh. Q Okay. Deanna, did you graduate from high school? A Yes. Q In what year? A '95. Q For how long a period of time were you and Eric going out together or living together? A Urn, I was-- I dated minimum starting in '94, my of '94, and we lived together on our own in April of '96. Q Okay. Was there a period of time in 1995 before the birth of your children when you lived with Mr. and Mrs. Rupp? A Yes, from March probably until, maybe, April. And then from April we lived on our own. Q March to April of what year? A '95. Q '95. Okay. And would you describe your relationship with Mr. and Mrs. Rupp during that period of time? A We talked when we had to. I never really had a 61 , _ ~' _,' l I, . . o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sound relationship with them. Q Were there some behaviors on Mrs. Rupp's part that caused you concern during that time? A Urn, before I ever moved in, she had caused problems between me and my family. Q How had she done that? A She had called my mom and dad and stepmother before they knew I was pregnant, before I ever knew I was pregnant, and never gave me a chance to call, and tell them. Q Was it a fear that you had shared with her son? A Yes. I had told her son I might be pregnant. He went and told his sister and mom, and from there the next day my mom got a phone call. She was off work. I was at school, and she had confronted me about it when I walked in the door from school. Q Did that cause a difficult for you? A Yes. Q Subsequent to that, then, did you end up living with the Rupps? A Yes. Q Okay. And I asked you what kind of behaviors Mrs. Rupp exhibited that caused you concern, and you've mentioned just one. Were there other behaviors that you observed that caused you some concern? A She would go through mood swings. She would be 62 "', . ~i o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 fine one day, and the next day she would be just the total opposite. I mean, she told Eric and I we had to leave because her and Eric couldn't agree on something. So she decided to kick us out, and we had to get out that night. We had no time to get our stuff together. We had to make arrangements at another time to come get the rest of our stuff. Q Did you ever see, subsequent to that time, dramatic mood swings with Mrs. Rupp? A Not really. She would be normal and the other day she would be depressed. She would be down, sad, about something, and it could change all of the time. Q You and Eric -- strike that. When your son Quinton was born, how long were you in the hospital? A I was in the hospital three days. Q Do you recollect either of the Rupps being there - A I don't recall them being there. Q After your son Nevin was born, do you -- how long 19 were you in the hospital? 20 A Six days. 21 Q And do you recollect either of the Rupps being 22 there when you were in the hospital? 23 A Not when my son was born. 24 Q Was your present husband in the hospital? 25 A No. Oh, my present husband. Yes, I'm sorry. 63 _i ~ - o - v 1 Yes, my present husband was in the hospital. 2 Q Why is that, Deanna? How did he happen, even 3 though you were having 4 A My husband and I have been best friends since we 5 started our ninth grade year in high school, and we've always 6 been friends ever since. 7 Q Now, you said that you and Eric Rupp separated 8 around July of 1997; is that right? 9 10 11 separated? 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 A That's correct. Q And you had custody of the two boys then after you A That's correct. Q Was there a custody order ultimately entered? A Yes, in October of '97. Q And that was a Dauphin County order, was it not? A Correct. Q And what kind of time did Eric have with the boys? A He had them wednesday evenings. He would pick 19 them up at daycare and bring them home or I would have to pick 20 them up. It would alternate and he would have them every 21 other weekend, picking up at daycare and bringing them to my 22 home. 23 24 Q After the two of you separated, where did he live? A To the best of my knowledge he lived in our town 25 house in July and August, and from there he went to his 64 1 I o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 parents' . Q So he stayed from September of '97, he stayed with his parents? A Correct. Q For how long a period of time, so far as you know, did he live with his parents? A I would say from September of '97 until maybe the end of '97, or the latter first two months of '98 then he lived with his friends. Q He went to live with his friends? A Correct. Q Okay. And where did his friends live? Did you know? A In Mechanicsburg. Q And then after the end of '97 or the very beginning of '98, when he moved in with his friends in Mechanicsburg, how long did he stay there then? Do you know? A He was there a couple months, and from there he went right with Crystal. Q So that would have been the midpoint in 1998 with Crystal? A He started dating Crystal between April and May of '98, and from there he's been with her. Q Urn, all right. Now, during -- did there come a time when you received notice from Children and Youth Services 65 . -",,' -':", o o 1 that someone had made -- 2 A Yes. 3 Q -- a report against you? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And that was an unfounded report as it turns out. 6 A Correct. 7 Q During the time that that report was made, where 8 were you living? 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I was living with my now in-laws. Q Okay. And so far as you know, were the kids clean A Uh-huh. Q -- and medically cared for? A When Eric would get them so if they were dirty that meant they were playing they weren't coming straight from my home, when he would pick them up, and my kids have never had bronchitis. I have medical records of them. Never have they had bronchial tubes, but they have never had bronchitis. My son has always had asthma. Q After you and Eric prior to yours and Eric breaking up, with what kind of frequency did the children see Mr. and Mrs. Rupp? A I didn't -- I guess whenever he was up there visiting. Q No, I am saying prior to the time that you broke 66 - I '_ ~' . . o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 l3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 up. A Oh, they would be there when we were there. Q And what kind of frequency were you there? A We weren't there on a regular basis. We stopped in maybe a couple times a month. It wasn't a constant thing like we had to go there every weekend or during the week or anything. Q And when you showed up once or twice a month, for how long a period of time did you stay? A Maybe a few hours. Q To your knowledge, before you and Eric broke up, did your children ever spend an overnight at the grandparents' house? A Not that I can recall. Q After you and Eric broke up, did you have any contact with Mr. and Mrs. Rupp? A No. Q Did they call you? A No. Q If they saw the children, was it when Eric had them on weekends? A Yes. Q Your best recollection about when that report from Children and Youth Services came is when? A Urn, the middle of '98 because I was pregnant with 67 , , 1IIiIIiiiilIIIi' , :; o . 1 2 3 my daughter. Q And subsequent to that report from Children and Youth Services, did you have a discussion with Eric? 4 A Yes. After I had received the letter, the same 5 night he came to pick up the children, and I had said to him, 6 I just received a letter from Children and Youth. He had no 7 idea what I was talking about. He knew nothing about it from 8 his knowledge. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 And I -- it was dropped. I didn't say anything else to him and we went to our Children and Youth hearing, and I just had a suspicion of who did it. You just get a gut instinct, and I just had one of those instincts. Q Did you and Eric make any agreement as to what kind of contact the children would have with their grandparents after October -- August -- or mid-1998 when that report came in? A Yes. Q What was the agreement? A I had asked him not to let the kids there overnight. If they were going to be there overnight, they didn't need to be with him, that until I got things straightened out with Children and Youth or something else came about, I didn't feel that they should be left there overnight, unsupervised, without him there. And he said that he agreed to that so I didn't 68 o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 further -- do anything legal about it because he had given me verbal agreement to my face. Q So, would you explain to the Court why you wanted the children not to be left with their grandparents after that children's services report? A The statements that were in the report were totally false. The statements that were in there were, one had fallen off of a deck and the other fell out of a tree. At my in-law's house there is no deck, and there are no trees that my children can climb. Q Did you have any concerns about the stability of the person who made the report at the time that you heard A I didn't know what kind of state she was in. I mean, I didn't talk to her. Eric never really told me much, if she was sick. I mean, if she was sick or better. There were times when he told me she was in the hospital or she was -- I mean, pretty much just when she was in the hospital and left me know that I knew heads up on that so I didn't know her state if she was up or down. Q Was Eric dating Crystal at the time that that report came out? A Yes. Q So if Mrs. Rupp testified that after that report came out the time with the children diminished, it might have been because of Eric's promise to you or his relationship with 69 .' .. -~. I: o O. . 2 A 1 Crystal; is that fair? 3 Q Correct. Okay. In any case, so far as you knew, there was 4 no weekend contact with the grandparents? 5 A I didn't know there was any weekend contact. I 6 knew-- I did not know that they were spending the night there 7 from Saturday or Sunday pretty much he had them. I knew none 8 of this. 9 Q And in facts, did you think that Eric was living 10 with his parents in the summer -- in the summer of 1998? 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 against you 16 I correct? 17 A 18 Q No. He was staying with friends. Or with Crystal. Correct. Deanna, you have seen the complaint that was filed by Mr. and Mrs. Rupp in the beginning of 2000. Am uh-huh. Did Mr. and Mrs. Rupp make any -- or Mr. Rupp, 19 make any telephone calls to you asking to see the children 20 independent of their son? 21 A Not before I got the paper. 22 Q In fact, had they had any contact with you at all 23 before they in the intervening years since the Children and 24 Youth Services report? 25 A No. 70 o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q Had they asked your permission in any way or your concurrence that you would go along with their visiting with their grandchildren? A Not until after I was served papers. Q I would just like to back up a little bit. While you and Eric were living together, you lived in an apartment first and then a town house. Am I correct? A Correct. Q Do you remember the dates in which you lived in the apartment? A Urn, probably from April or May of '95 until April of '96. Q Did your -- did Mr. and Mrs. Rupp come to that apartment while you lived there? A Maybe one or two times. Q Did you permit the children to go alone with them during that year's period of time? A No, because my son wasn't born until August so he was never there by himself. 20 Q Okay. After April of '96 you moved? 21 A Correct. 22 Q And where did you go? 23 A To New Cumberland in a town house. 24 Q And did you stay there for a year? 25 A Yeah, we were there until the following July. 71 ~"'} o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q All right. So a little over a year? A Uh-huh. Q During that period of time, how often did Mr. and Mrs. Rupp come to your town house? A I don't know exactly how many times. Maybe a few times. Q How often did you go to visit them? A Just like we used to do unless they were fighting about something then we didn't go for awhile? Q So was that one or two times a month A Yeah. Q -- for a couple of hours? A Uh-huh. Q During that period of time when you lived in the town house, were the children permitted to stay with Mr. and Mrs. Rupp overnight? A They never really stayed overnight anywhere besides my house and my mom and stepdad's. Q During that period of time do you have any recollection of a time where Mr. and Mrs. Rupp had visitation with your children without you or Eric being present? A Maybe a couple of times, not anything extensive. Q I'd like you to talk a little bit about your children, they haven't seen Mr. and Mrs. Rupp since when? A Urn, I guess November 11th of 1999. I thought it 72 . - ~ - -," . . o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l6 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 was before that, but I guess that's when the last time they seen them. Q And you thought it was before that because you thought you and Eric had an agreement on this issue? A I mean, I knew they visited, but I didn't know that they were spending the night. Q Since that time, have you had any inquiries from your children regarding the grandparents? A No. Now, since I'd like you to talk about your Q husband a little bit. He is a good dad to your children. A Uh-huh. Q His parents, how long have you known them? A I have known his parents just as long as I have known him, since 1991, '92. Q Okay. And over the years have you maintained a relationship with those people? A Oh, yeah. Q Would you tell me what their earliest involvement with your two boys was? A Urn, they were involved with my kids since they've been babies. My now present husband used to baby-sit my oldest son with his -- at the time his girlfriend and I, we were all friends, and they would baby-sit my son. And his parents saw my son then and I would go visit at the time I 73 ''',-. ~" ".III;,: o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 would go visit his parents with apply kids. Q What kind of a relationship do your children have now with their grandparents, Eric's folks? A They really don't have one. Q Excuse me. Let me redo that question. What kind of a relationship do your children have, your boys have with RYan's folks? A Oh, okay. It's really good. It's just like regular grandparents. I mean, they've always been like grandparents ever since Ryan and I have been together. Q What do your children call them? A Sometimes it's grammy and pappy or grammy and pappy Linda and Kimmel. They have three sets of grandparents right now so it's pretty hard to remember who's who, and they go to everybody's house so it's pretty hard for them. Q Your boys are how old now? A Five and four. Q When they last saw Mr. and Mrs. Rupp, they were three and four; is that right? A Probably, yeah. Q And so far as you know, when the Children and Youth Services report came out, and the time with the grandparents, with Mr. and Mrs. Rupp diminished, they were how old? A Urn, '98 -- my son was just turning three, and the 74 I~ o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 other one was just turning two, yeah. Q Urn, Mr. and Mrs. Rupp are only asking for a little bit of time every other month. Why are you opposed to that? A Urn, I guess I would feel a little bit different if the kids had been asking or wanting to go there or it would be different under other circumstances, but I just don't when her highs and lows are going to be. I mean, I am not saying she is not a good person to be around. I am just looking out for my kids' well-being. Who knows if she would be having a good day, and go into a bad day. I think they've been through enough. And I am not, at this point, willing to share any time with them that I don't have to share because I just got all of the time with them. I used to have to share it all of the time. Q Can I -- would you describe to the Court what your life now is like? You work full-time? A Correct. Q And on the weekends, the kinds of things that you and the boys are involved in? A It's very rare that we are home sitting still unless we have to be at a certain place. The kids love to go outside. We are always at the park. We are at races. They love to go to races. We are at our friends' house with their kids. We go to the beach to the aquarium. We do things a 75 o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 normal family does. We are always doing something every weekend. Q Do the children have an extended family through Mr. and Mrs. Kimmel, grandma and grandma Kimmel -- A Yes. Q Whether it is aunts, uncles that kind of thing? A Oh, yeah. They have quite a few of aunts and uncles and cousins. Q For instance, at Christmas would it be a burden to have to cut out extra time from your own family's new life together? A It's very -- our Christmas -- all of our holidays are very hard. We go from -- we don't really have Christmas at our home. Later that night or the day before we have to share holidays with my parents, which they are divorced. I have two sets of families. I have to go to we have my husband's families and their family celebrate Christmas on-- Q When you say three sets of grandparents, you mean your dad, his family, your mom and her family, and Mr. and Mrs. A That I have to share with just for Christmas. Q Do you have any concerns, Deanna, regarding the interference of your relationship with your kids by Mr. and Mrs. Rupp? A Urn, I don't know what would happen now. Is this 76 I <'C: ':':1 o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 hearsay? It is coming from somebody else to me. I was always told there was stuff being said about me, that the kids would hear this stuff. And I just -- I mean -- and at that time, granted, it could have just been hearsay. I don't know that and I don't know if it would continue if they went there. Q Have the Rupps given you any reason to believe that they are supporters of you over the years since the children have been born? A No, not really. Q Thank you. MS. LINDSAY: Cross examine. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. RUSIC: Q Good afternoon, Mrs. Kimmel. A Hi. Q Do you remember that we had talked once on the phone A Yes. Q -- about a year ago? A Yes. Q what I wanted to do, was I wanted to ask you about a letter that I put into evidence earlier through Mr. Rupp, but we marked it as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5, if I could please show you that. MS. HUSIC: Your Honor, if I may approach. 77 r.. '-~ , , ' I o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: Certainly. (Ms. Husic handed exhibit to the witness.) BY MS. HUSIC: Q Mrs. Kimmel, do you remember seeing this letter? A Yes. Q And was it after you received this that you did telephone my office, and we had talked about a little bit about the Rupps wanting to have visitation. Do you recall that? A Correct. Q Okay. And in the letter, isn't it also correct that the Rupps did talk to you and ask you about some visitation prior to filing the custody complaint. Correct? A Right. 'Cause I had no idea what was going on between them and Eric. I wasn't aware of the situation. Q And one of the reasons why do you recall that when we talked on the phone, that one of the reasons why I called you is because we wanted to let you know about the Rupp's request for visitation. Would you agree with that? A Correct. Q Okay. And the other reason we called was that the Rupps wanted you to know that there was difficulty with their son, and that they would be filing a complaint, in which you would be named, because you are the boys' mother? A Correct. 78 --~.~ k".' ,..'.-- ~; o . 1 Q And they didn't want it to take you by surprise by 2 filing the complaint. 3 A No. 4 Q And I explained that very carefully. 5 A Correct. 6 Q At the same time, I also advised you that you may 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 want to get counsel. Correct? A Correct. Q Okay. Would you object at all to producing the children's medical records, if you are asking for Mrs. Rupp's records? Would you object to producing the medical health records for us to review of your boys, including hospital records, emergency room reports? MS. LINDSAY: I will object, Your Honor, for relevancy. THE COURT: I suspect at this time tit for tat, and what is good for the goose -- in other words, you want to talk to her too. MS. LINDSAY: I would. BY MS. RUSIC: Q With the Children and Youth situation that you described, you are aware that Children and Youth never tells the individual who made the report. You are aware of that aren't you? A Yeah. 79 ie- I "':'-' . " -,' ~ o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Okay. And I just want to be very clear in your testimony, in fact, I wrote this down that you just had a gut feeling. A Correct. Q So except for Mrs. Rupp's testimony setting that aside, it could have been Eric who reported. Correct? A No, she admitted it to me. Q Doesn't he have some difficulty with truthfulness? A And I had a gut feeling it was either him or his parents. Once it was admitted, I knew my gut feeling was right. Q Mr. and Mrs. Rupp stated that after, I guess, November 11th, which was the time frame -- is everything okay, you were kind of laughing? And I didn't know if there was -- A No, I wasn't laughing. I'm sorry. Q Just checking. After Eric essentially left and broke off relationship with his parents, the Rupp's testified that they continued to send cards. Did you give the cards and letters or whatever it is that the Rupps sent, did you give them to the boys? A My kids saw them. Q So you didn't throw them away? A No. I might not have them now because I don't save everything but -- Q Okay. Prior to the adoption, could you tell the 80 o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Court what you did to encourage contact between the Rupps and your boys? A That wasn't my choice. I didn't know Eric wasn't taking them there. They were allowed to be there with supervised visitation. I-- Q Well, surely you do recall our telephone conversation, and during that time period I told you that there was a break in the parents' and Eric's relationships. Do you remember that? A Right. Q And I contacted you at that time on behalf of my clients about visitation. What did you do to encourage the visitation prior to the adoption between the Rupps and the children? A I didn't encourage anything. Q You didn't do anything at all. Now, I wanted to show you a piece of correspondence that I would like to mark as P-6. MS. HUSIC: I am showing this to counsel. (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 6 was marked for identification.) BY MS. RUSIC: Q Mrs. Kimmel, have you seen this letter? A Yes. 81 ~- ~ ;1 ~-' ~ J~ o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Are you -- you sound uncertain? A No, I have it. Q This is a letter that we've marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 6, May 16th, to your Attorney, Carol Lindsay, and this is regarding (change what the record says) an opportunity we discussed as to the Rupp's scheduling to drive to your home to take the children out to lunch? A Okay. Q Okay. What did you do about this? A I didn't do anything. Q Why not? A I didn't know if it said, if I wanted to respond to this. And I figured that we were still doing the conciliation, that I wasn't supposed to do anything until everything was finalized. Q So you didn't bother responding to this, and this was before the adoption. Correct? A Correct. Q Why didn't you respond? A I don't know. Q I am showing you what I would like to mark as -- what I am marking as Plaintiff's 7. MS. HUSIC: I am showing to it to counsel. 82 -1-_ ~l", o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No.7 was marked for identification.) BY MS. RUSIC: Q Mrs. Kimmel, have you had an opportunity to review this letter? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Did you see this letter? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And what did you do about attempts for the Rupps 11 to make arrangements to see your children? 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A They had called a couple of times and, urn, once left a message on my answering machine. The only times I knew they called, they were on my caller I.D. I was told if I did not return his call by Sunday evening, that he was going to go to his lawyers. So I figured -- I was -- I caught the message on Saturday evening on my way out the door. I was not home -- I didn't have time to call him back. So I figured I would be getting a letter from either my lawyer or new papers being served to me. Q Well, there were no new papers served to you, were there? A For the hearing. Q Well, they were served to everyone. Correct? A Correct. 83 I'.. o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Urn, were you aware that there were why didn't you show up at the conciliation in July? A Our times were backwards. I had a different time. I thought it was at 10: at 1:30, it was 10:30. Q You did get a Court Order, didn't you? A Correct. Q Were you aware that there was some discussion at that conciliation of possibility of making arrangements for Rupps to see the children? A Correct. Q What did you do to follow up on that? A I didn't do anything. Q So is it your testimony that you purposely and intentionally avoided making any contacts or arrangements with the Rupps to see the kids; is that right? A I just figured that it was I didn't want to do anything until I had a Court Order. Q Is a lot of this just because of bad feelings that you have I guess I am not really clear why it is that you have these feelings towards the Rupps. A It's not just because of bad feelings. Q Well, certainly you were aware that until November of '99 the children were spending every other weekend and all weekends with the Rupps? A No, I wasn't. They were not supposed to be there 84 ~~ -.,-, ~'\ o . 1 because Eric had lived with his girlfriend at that time. I 2 was under the impression they were not going there unless they 3 were supervised for a couple hours during the weekend of his 4 visitation. I was not aware that they were there. 5 Q I guess what I am wondering, how is it that you 6 did not know that your children were spending every other 7 weekend with the Rupps, but you seemed to know quite well 8 about Eric's whereabouts, and what he was doing with Crystal? 9 How did you know so much about Crystal not the children? 10 Because he lived with Crystal after this happened. A 11 I was under the assumption they were at Crystal's house, 12 because that is where they lived at this time. 13 Q Wouldn't it be correct to say that basically the 14 most that you have known about the moods swings that you've 15 described on Mrs. Rupp's part were basically information that 16 you've received from Eric? 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 No. She was in the hospital when Eric and I were A together. Q Did you go in the hospital to visit her? A No, neither did her son. Q And you would agree, though, that Eric and his Eric really had a difficult time getting along with his parents. There was a lot of tension and conflict there. Would you agree with that? A Sometimes and sometimes no. 85 -'-, o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Why now do you believe that even with the short amount of time that the Rupps are asking to spend with the children would be a problem? Why do you think it is not in their best interest? A Because I just don't see -- I don't know if she just had another episode two months ago, how do I know it is not going to happen in four months from now. Nobody knows when her ups or downs are going to be. Q Let me ask you this, Mrs. Kimmel: Is everyone in your immediate family, including your extended family in perfect health, that is, is there anyone that has cancer, a heart condition A No. Q Everybody is in perfect physical and mental health? A Nobody has cancer or heart conditions that I -- Q Would you hold epilepsy against a person if they had that? A No, 'cause my son could have epilepsy. Q Would you hold it against a person if they had a severe heart condition? Would you A No, but if it comes to my kids, I will. Q You would. Would you hold it against a person if they had cerebral palsy? A No. 86 -~ - "',i-.. , . ~"' o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q Would you hold it against anyone who had any type of disability, including mental health conditions? A No. Q Would you hold it against people in general? A No. Q What other prejudices do you have? MS. LINDSAY: Objection, Your Honor. Badgering the witness. THE COURT: I think we've crossed the line. BY MS. RUSIC: Q Mrs. Kimmel, isn't it true that your mother was also treated? AMy mom lost a son. Q Was she hospitalized? A Yes, she was. Q And how long was she hospitalized? A She was only there for two weeks. Q Did you look with disdain upon your mother because she had the mental condition and some depression associated with it? 21 MS. LINDSAY: Your Honor, I don't like to -- 22 THE COURT: Yeah, I'm not sure we have the time, 23 necessarily, to go into such detail. We are starting to beat 24 this horse real dead. 25 MS. HUSIC: Your Honor, I certainly don't intend 87 -.......... I" o . 1 to do that, but 2 THE COURT: Okay. Well, then let's move on to 3 something else. 4 MS. HUSIC: Certainly, Your Honor. 5 THE COURT: You've made your point. 6 BY MS. RUSIC: 7 Q What other interference do you think would occur 8 if you you are not really sure about the best interest of 9 the children. What about the interference? How do you feel 10 if the children were to visit with Mr. and Mrs. Rupp for a 11 couple of hours every other month, how would that interfere 12 with your relationship with the children? 13 A Because I work full-time, and my time with them is 14 pretty much on the weekends. 15 Q Okay. Well, if they agreed to come down and take 16 the children to lunch or if the Rupps agreed to well, let's 17 start with that. How would it interfere with your time if the 18 Rupps decided, if they would ask you if they could take the 19 children to lunch for a period of an hour and a half. How 20 would that 21 A I would have to work my schedule around when they 22 wanted to come, and worry about if I was back in time because 23 I would have to put my plans on hold for somebody else. And I 24 have done that for quite a few years with their dad. Now I 25 have them to myself and everybody else wants to interfere with 88 " ~~ -. :.... '" Lb-'; o o 1 them. 2 Q Do you feel that way about the other grandparents? 3 A No. 4 MS. HUSIC: Thank you. Nothing further, 5 Your Honor. 6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS. LINDSAY: Q Deanna, you have in front of you two letters marked P-6 and P-7. A Yes. Q Proposing times for Mr. and Mrs. Rupp to spend time with the children. Both of these letters, am I correct, were addressed after the pending -- the litigation pending in this case; is that right? A Yes. Q And your position throughout has been that the children that you did not want to encourage a relationship with Mr. and Mrs. Rupp; is that correct? A Correct. Q And, in fact, your position is now they have three sets of grandparents already. A Yes. Q Am I right? A Yes. Q Am I correct that -- you were asked regarding 89 ~~~< ,I _ o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 certain prejudices that you might have against one person, one kind of person with a disability or another. Do you draw the line at disability when it could A Effect my children? Q Effect your children. A Yes. Q I am going to ask you about your children's needs. Do you believe that they need a continued relationship with Mr. and Mrs. Rupp? A Not at this point. Q And why is that, Deanna? A I guess I would feel different if they asked about them or if they ever asked about them before they ever stopped seeing them, and right after they stopped seeing them. I have not heard one thing out of my children. And it's not that I don't say anything to them or say mean things about them, it's just I never heard anything about them. Q Do you think they have adequate relations with the older generation through their other grandparents? A Yes. MS. LINDSAY: No other questions. MS. HUSIC: Brief recross, Your Honor. RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. RUSIC: Q Again, I need to have you articulate if the boys 90 ~ - '.' . .- . I ~'~:~ o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 didn't ask prior to the adoption, what did you do to encourage communication or thoughts or some negotiation that they have grandparents Rupp? A They should know they have grandparents, if they saw them as much as they did. Q I wanted to ask you A I didn't do anything. Q You did nothing. Okay. What did you tell the boys around the period of adoption? How did you MS. LINDSAY: Form of the question. MS. HUSIC: Sure BY MS. RUSIC: Q How did you -- A They have always called my husband dad since before that is who my youngest son knows, they know he has a dad Eric, it is daddy Eric. It is not his dad, and they knew that Ryan was going to become their new father, and they've accepted it quite well. Q Now, you understand that the Rupps certainly by no mean opposed the adoption. You remember that? A Yes. Q And you also remember that in consideration for you and the children, that they even decided to postpone any further action in this custody matter until the adoption was finished. 91 j,- I, . ~~-"'-~""i';rj o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Correct. MS. HUSIC: Nothing further. Thank you. MS. LINDSAY: Your Honor -- THE COURT: Does it occur to you that perhaps since the boys got a new dad, that they figure that they got new grandparents? THE WITNESS: No. Before they even were adopted by my husband, they always -- I mean, I am under the assumption that they had still seen their grandparents. THE COURT: So they know that the Rupps are still their grandparents now? THE WITNESS: If -- they do but they have never really asked me about them or asked to go see them or talk to them or anything. I have never had my kids ask me about them. THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You may step down. MS. LINDSAY: Your Honor, I think I can present two brief witnesses, and then -- THE COURT: I am not sure we are going to need any sort of continued hearing. Have a real good grasp, I think, on the facts. MS. LINDSAY: All right. THE COURT: Of course what we do with them is an entirely different matter but go ahead. MS. LINDSAY: Ryan Kimmel, please. 92 ~~- - ~," >~. I ;&1 o . 1 MS. HUSIC: Your Honor, may I please ask for an 2 offer of proof? 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: No, you don't need an offer of proof. I would be irresponsible not to hear from this man. MS. HUSIC: Okay. Whereupon, RYAN KIMMELL, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. LINDSAY: Q Mr. Kimmel, your name and address. A Ryan Kimmel, 200 Big Spring Terrace, Newville, Pennsylvania. Q Sir, you are married to Deanna Kimmel? A Correct. Q Her children are your children. Correct? A Yes. Q You adopted the two boys in August of this year; is that right? A Correct. Q How long back does your relationship with those boys go? A I would say since Nevin was born. I have been around the kids since they were -- since the boys were born, but I really got really close to them when Nevin was born 93 o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 because I was there when he was born, and I was at the hospital. And then we got together and I have been with them every since. Q Okay. And how about your folks? Can you date back how long ago your parents were involved with these two boys? A the boys. Q I'd say ever since I have known Deanna and she had They've known the boys ever since they were born. Even when she was living with Eric? A Yes. Correct. Q How did it happen that you and your parents got to see those boys even when she was living with Eric? A I was baby-sitting with my girlfriend at the time for her, and took them there. And I was real good friends with Deanna in high school, and she come over and brought the kids over and saw my parents. Q How old were the boys when you and Deanna became romantically involved, after your long friendship? A Oh, I would say Nevin was only about 10 months, and Quinton was probably a year and a half. Q Okay. And thereafter, did your parents become actively involved in your life after you and Deanna were a couple? A Yes. She moved in when Nevin was about 10 months, and they were actively involved then. 94 liIirIiIIi , " ,~ .,:: I, o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Okay. Would you please describe the boys' relationship to your folks now? A I think they are really attached. They always want to go out with my parents and do things with my father and my mother, and go places and talk about them and Q If you asked the boys now who their grandparents were, what would they say? A They would probably say my father and mother and her mother and her husband and her father and his wife. Q You heard Deanna testify that she's never heard the boys make reference since last year sometime about Mr. and Mrs. Rupp. Have you ever heard any such reference? A No. Q Urn, do you believe that the boys have an adequate emotional support in their life from their grandpa~ents and aunts and uncles and others? A Yeah, I think they are supported well enough from all of their grandparents that they have now. Q Urn, do you have brothers and sisters? A No. Q You are an only child then? A Correct. Q Deanna believes that another order for visitation rights would interfere with your time with the children. Do you agree with that? 95 . Ol I , -"" I, ","", 0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 A Yes. Q Okay. Would you explain to the Court why? A I just they got enough support now from my family and her family that just the grandparents now would just kind of interfere and mix things up between our families that we have now. Q Is there a lot of call on your time to take the boys to various grandparents' houses now? A Well, we have a good bit of time between my parents and her mother and father because they are split up. So we have her two sides of the family and just a bunch of time between all three. Q Thank you. MS. LINDSAY: Cross examine. MS. HUSIC: No, nothing, Your Honor. EXAMINATION 17 BY THE COURT: 18 Q Just in a nutshell what is your working schedule? 19 A I work from 7 to 3:30. 20 Q And Monday through Friday? 21 A Yes. Correct. 22 Q And what about Deanna? Is she working? 23 A Yes, she works it depends -- certain days she 24 works 8 to 4:30 and, urn, 8:30 to 5. 25 Where are these kids there are times then when Q 96 --, I' -I.. 0,'." ~~'j "'. o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 both of you are away from the children? A Yes. Q Are they are baby-sat? A Yes, at daycare. Q So they were at daycare center? A Yes, and one is at school. The oldest boy is in school and Nevin is in daycare. Q Urn-hum. And there are occasionally school holidays and so forth where you have to put them in daycare because you still are both working seen though school is in session? A Yes. THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. MS. LINDSAY: Your Honor, my last witness is Linda 13 14 15 Kimmel. 16 17 proof now? 18 19 20 21 MS. HUSIC: Your Honor, can I ask for an offer of This is the other grandmother? Yes. Good enough. That is the offer of proof. Whereupon, LINDA J. KIMMEL, THE COURT: MS. LINDSAY: MS. HUSIC: THE COURT: 22 23 24 25 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION 97 .'.- -,.1. o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS. LINDSAY: Q Mrs. Kimmel, your name and address. A Linda Jane Kimmel, 150 West Middlesex Drive, Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Q Mrs. Kimmel, you are the grandmother of Nevin and Quinton, are you not? A That's correct. Q I'd like you to describe to the Court how far back your relationship with these two little boys goes. A Basically since they have been born. We've seen Quinton off and on for that first year prior to when Nevin was born, but we really became close to them when Nevin was about 10 months, in July and August of I think that would have been '97 that Deanna moved into our home. Q Now, during that time she was living with you. Am I correct? A Yes, she was. Q And, urn, could you testify as to whether or not the boys were well cared for during that period between '97 and the summer of '98? A Yes, they were well cared for. Yes. Q Medical needs taken care of? A Yes. Q Were you aware of any agreement that Deanna and her ex-boyfriend, then Eric, had with regard to where the 98 - ~ - ''-J " " ',:i o . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 children spent their weekends? A I know that Deanna had discussed with me numerous times concerns that she had had, urn, that Eric was not to take the children to his parents anymore after she had been served a notice. Q All right. And did she ever -- do you know whether she suspected that he was doing that? A It was our understanding that he was not doing that because she was very, very upset when she found out that that had been happening. Q Now, at that time when that note -- do you remember when that notice was served? A Yes, she was living with us at that time. Q And, urn, how old were the boys at that time when that happened? A I think that was sometime during '98. I am not sure of the month. I think it was during the summer of '98 so this would have been two and three or going on two and going on three. Q Okay. Have you ever had any contact with Mr. and Mrs. Rupp? A No, I haven't. Q No telephone calls or anything of that sort? A I have just had -- there have been times when I think Mr. Rupp had called the house when Deanna was living 99 I ~, o .- 'W 1 there, and I would just relay the message that he had called. 2 I would like you to describe your relationship Q 3 with your grandchildren, please? 4 I think we have a very good relationship. They A 5 love to come to the house from the time that we've met them. 6 We have always treated them like they were our grandchildren. 7 We have a very extended family. I have five brothers and 8 sisters, and they all have children, either their natural 9 children or children that they have had through a previous 10 marriage. We have a big family. I have a mother. My father 11 has passed away. Glenn's has also has a mother that is 12 living, and he has two sisters, and they are both married, and 13 we have family reunions and get-togethers all of the time. 14 Do you provide gifts to the children for their Q 15 birthdays, Christmas, those types of things? 16 Yes, we do. A 17 Are you present for their birthday parties, Q 18 celebrations? 19 Always. A 20 MS. LINDSAY: Thank you. Cross examine. 21 MS. HUSIC: Nothing. 22 THE COURT: And by served notice, you mean this 23 Children and Youth Compliant. 24 THE WITNESS: That's correct. All right. 25 THE COURT: Thank you. Oh, I did want to ask you 100 .. - -, , '-. ~~ o . 1 something. Do you know these folks? 2 THE WITNESS: I have no idea, no. I have never 3 met them or seen them before today. 4 THE COURT: Never seen them. All right. Thank 5 you. 6 MS. LINDSAY: Your Honor, we rest. 7 MS. HUSIC: Your Honor, I depending on where we 8 go, I suppose we will rest, depending on the wishes of the 9 Court. 10 THE COURT: Why don't I then do what I sometimes 11 do in these cases, rather than have the more classic closing 12 address, I will tell you what my gut reactions are, and then 13 you can react to it. 14 MS. HUSIC: Okay, Your Honor. I move into 15 evidence my exhibits. 16 THE COURT: These are good, decent folks, who 17 don't want these kids to disappear from their lives. They are 18 making a remarkably modest request, and the type of contact 19 with these two boys, which I can hardly conclude is 20 disruptive. 21 On the other hand, I can truly appreciate mom's 22 feelings that three sets of grandparents is enough. She is 23 tired of people laying claim to her kids. They are clearly 24 well supported, but on the other hand, if you have six 25 grandparents, I happen to know that children are resilient 101 ~ I. ~- ""I I 0 . I 1 enough to survive eight, and I don't know whether the question 2 of what is in the best interest of the children translates to 3 the notion that -- or what is not in their best interest 4 translates into a notion that you can have too many 5 grandparents. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't. I don't 6 know. 7 When I say I am satisfied it is not disruptive, 8 both of these parents work, and these kids are out of the care 9 of their parents for hours and hours every week, and I happen 10 to know that with the right permission forms and whatnot, 11 daycare centers and whatnot will allow people to go to lunch 12 with their grandparents. That's not difficult. 13 This all started with an unfounded child welfare 14 complaint. I understand how the mother is deeply hurt by it, 15 but Mrs. Rupp has told me if she had to do it over again, she 16 wouldn't, and realizes it is the worst mistake she ever made. 17 So there we are. At least nobody has advocated cutting the 18 children in half, which is a nice thing. 19 Anyway, that is where we are. I have looked at 20 the Rigler case, Rigler versus Treen. It is the closest thing 21 to this kind of case that we have and learned from it the 22 legal principle that adoption of the children into a new 23 family does not terminate their rights, but I have also 24 learned also that friction between the mother and the mother 25 of the biological father is a factor, but in the Rigler case, , 102 ~ -- ", -, o o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the difference between Mrs. Rigler and Ms. Treen were extreme, and I don't sense that this is the case here. There is a little bit of animosity but nothing like -- nothing like this Superior Court case. So anybody want to see if there are some other cases out there MS. LINDSAY: I think I have looked at them all. THE COURT: -- or let me think about it? MS. LINDSAY: I would like the opportunity to respond to Your Honor inclination, to begin with. THE COURT: Go ahead. MS. LINDSAY: If this Court determines that there is going to be some time with grandparents, my client would make the time rather than have it unsupervised. So I understand the Court's thinking about the daycare. It looks like a natural, but that is her deepest fear is that the children would be unsupervised in a setting where they won't be safe. So if she has to, if the Court orders her, she would will do whatever the Court says. I would ask you not to let that happen. I would ask you then still -- THE COURT: Even keeping in mind that there are other family members too MS. LINDSAY: That's a possibility that is a possibility, you know. We might" be able to do that. But I would like the Court to consider there are two factors, first , of all, what is in the best interest of the child. As I've 103 I -,,1 , ' ". o o 1 explained to my client, it is hard to argue that too much love 2 in the world that a child shouldn't have too much love. 3 I understand that, Your Honor, but I think you 4 have to look at it from the practical point of view from these 5 folks, a young family, three little kids trying to make 6 everything manage and work for themselves, while mom works 7 full-time, dad works full-time, luckily they have a lovely 8 support system behind them to keep them up and going. 9 We have an adoption. This is a new family. They 10 would like to have grandmas and grandpas the way they always 11 have. You can't help but feel sad for Mr~ and Mrs. Rupp. 12 These things happen. Had Eric given these kids up to a family 13 other than a step-parent adoption, it would have been done. 14 We would have been finished. It would have been nothing, they 15 could have gone onto fashion the kind of life a couple needs 16 with their parents, and the people who love them behind them. 17 I understand that distinction in the law or we 18 would have been the first to raise it. That is very clearly 19 set out in Treen, but I think the fact that they love them 20 doesn't make it in the best interest of the children to have 21 an ongoing relationship with four sets of grandparents. 22 I mean, what is in these children's best interest? 23 From the testimony of my client, there is not much connection 24 if any connection with this former life that they had, that 25 was full of disruption with their dad, and all of the rest of 104 - , , . . . :. ~-'&l o o 1 that. 2 But also, Your Honor, the Court shall consider the 3 amount of personal contact between the parents or grandparents 4 of a party and child prior to the application. Up until -- in 5 November of '99 we know there was none after that. All right. 6 And my client obviously didn't encourage it. She didn't want 7 to. Have it go on the fact that she didn't encourage it might 8 be useful in a custody case, but it is certainly not useful in 9 this particular case. 10 Prior to that time, however, it is her testimony 11 that between '97, when she and Eric broke up, so to speak, and 12 subsequent to then there was very little contact even with 13 these parents, and that's because as these folks say, once 14 Crystal was in the picture, Crystal being the other woman, 15 Eric's other woman, once Crystal was in the picture, the 16 relationship with these folks diminished. 17 Furthermore my client testifies that Eric didn't 18 live with them for a year and a half, and they are quite 19 frankly sort of foggy on the dates here. He didn't live with 20 them for a year and a half. He lived with them for a period 21 of about two or three months, maybe four months, before he 22 went off to live with friends, and then ultimately with 23 Crystal. 24 Now, did he bring them over to his folks house 25 while he was living with friends and with Crystal, well, 105 -- - - ~ 1 _ _..... ~; o o 1 probably not with Crystal from August or the summer of '98 on, 2 probably not. 3 At that point from the summer of '98 on, these 4 children were two and three years old. What kind of a memory 5 does a two and three year old have of a prior set of 6 grandparents. 7 Her testimony is that the contact -- and even Mrs. 8 Rupp, to her credit, says once I made the report to children's 9 services, the relationship diminished. In conformity with her 10 testimony, her deal with her -- with Eric was no unsupervised 11 over there. And apparently he did it to some extent because 12 they testify that the relationship fell off. 13 So we have the time before they separated in '95, 14 '96 when these babies are born up until '97 when they go over 15 for a half hour here two hours there, once or twice a month. 16 Babies don't have any recollection of that, I am sure. 17 From '97 to '98 in the summer or to the beginning 18 of '98 when Eric lives with his folks where there might have 19 been a more intense period of visits because Eric is living at 20 home, but from her testimony, from the beginning of '98 on, 21 Eric is involved we know we don't have Eric here. If the 22 Court wants to hear from Eric, I will subpoena him. We 23 certainly 24 THE COURT: What could he possibly say? I mean, 25 the man who set all of this in motion isn't here, and now I 106 ,.. ~k o o 1 know why. 2 MS. LINDSAY: And we don't know what he would say. 3 I suspect that is why they didn't call him as a witness to get 4 him in, and sit him down. I suggest that the amount of 5 testimony is pretty clear that the amount of contact may have 6 been exaggerated or in the heart of Mr. and Mrs. Rupp, not 7 according to my client, and so these children really aren't 8 being deprived of grandparents with whom they have a warm and 9 long and wonderful relationship and their hearts are breaking 10 and understandably, but maybe the needs of this young family 11 has to come first. Thank you, Your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Miss Husic. 13 MS. HUSIC: Your Honor, very briefly. 14 I think that in a perfect world perhaps Deanna and 15 her husband, the children, fathers and the Rupps would have 16 been able to work this out; but we can't. But the Rupps 17 clearly had tried to do so. 18 I think without going through a litany of facts or 19 cogitating over what was or what should have been or what 20 might have been, I think Your Honor stated the factors very 21 actually perfectly, almost. Those are the consideration 22 that's we looked at here. And when you cut to the chase, that 23 is exactly the issues as Your Honor stated. 24 Unfortunately November '99 appeared to be used as 25 an opportunity to sever the relationship with the Rupps. 107 - , , o o 1 These are very good people, and they do want a very modest 2 amount of time with the grandchildren. 3 You know, basically they are asking for anything. 4 They are looking for a lunch. They are looking for a couple 5 of hours on a weekend. They have cards, gifts, presents that 6 they want to give the children, and that is all of the time 7 that they are looking for here. 8 We assert to the Court that it is in the best 9 interest of the children for them to continue to have contact 10 with the Rupps. The saddest thing of all is that their father 11 chose not to be a part of their life, and apparently chose 12 Crystal over his own children. 13 We also don't believe that there would be an 14 interference in the parent/child relationship. Clearly the 15 Rupps feel badly about some of the past injustices or 16 indifferences that occurred between Deanna, but that was many 17 years ago. They are not contemporaneous issues. I think all 18 of the parties should put it aside and move on from there. 19 But otherwise, we are asking the Court to grant 20 visitation for limited periods of time to Mr. and Mrs. Rupp 21 with their grandchildren. Thank you, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Well, the attorneys have done their 23 jobs invariably, and now it is time for me to do mine. I will 24 reflect on it and have an order down. 25 MS. LINDSAY: Thank you, Your Honor. 108 ~~"""R~" ""'" .J 1llll1' 'PI'S" I o A", W 1 MS. HUSIC: Thank you, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Thank you. 3 (Whereupon, court adjourned at 4:14 p.m.) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 109 it'" .-.1, ~ 0"", .'-- 4 I hereby certify that the proceedings are contained o 1 CERTIFICATE 5 fully and accurately in the notes taken by me on the above 2 3 6 cause and that this is a correct transcript of the same. 10 11 12 13 7 8 9 cb- hh (H fiLQ) ra~ne K. Troutman, RPR ~~ 14 The foregoing record of the proceedings on the hearing 15 of the within matter is hereby approved and directed to be 16 filed. 17 18 19 frI~ 15" 2<<>1 Date 20 21 22 23 24 25 110 .AL A. Hess, J. Judicial District ~ - C!~ ~,F,\.r;')~C\f~)'~:~J(/\\W ii' ~}~D'" \ P, 1.A\2.: 43 loll \ H-'t:'. t~ I .'i C'JMSd\\..PND COUNT'{ PENN5'll\!/\NI.1\ o A,"",. 'i.J .. ,."" ~r. ,_c~~~ ,,' ,< __ '0'''' " __,~,', '< ,.".II!'"