HomeMy WebLinkAbout03-6357KENNETH L. KREITZER,
Plaintiff
V.
FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR. and
LINDA J. ROUSE and
DEBORAH ROUSE,
Defendants
IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS
CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
No. 03- (. 357 Cl Tt--
CIVIL ACTION - LAW
IN CUSTODY
COMPLAINT IN CUSTODY
AND NOW, the Plaintiff, Kenneth L. Kreitzer, by and through his attorney, Jeanne B.
Costopoulos, Esquire, makes the following Complaint in Custody:
1. The Plaintiff, Kenneth L. Kreitzer, is an adult individual who currently resides at 2109
Princeton Avenue #3, Camp Hill, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, 17011.
2. The Defendant, Frederick R. Rouse, Sr., is an adult individual who currently resides at
202 Mountville Drive, Lebanon, Lebanon County, Pennsylvania, 17046.
3. The Defendant, Linda J. Rouse, is an adult individual who currently resides at 202
Mountville Drive, Lebanon, Lebanon County, Pennsylvania, 17046.
4. The Defendant, Deborah Rouse, is an adult individual who currently resides at 303
Foxridge Road, Lewisburg, North Carolina, 27549.
5. There is one dependant child from a relationship between Plaintiff and Defendant
Deborah Rouse, namely, Andrew T. Kreitzer, bom August 29, 1997.
6. The Plaintiff seeks sole physical and legal custody of the following child:
Name Present Residence Age
Andrew T. Kreitzer 2109 Princeton Ave #3 6 years
Camp Hill, PA 17011 DOB 8/29/1997
7. The child, Andrew T. Kreitzer, is presently in the custody of his natural father, Plaintiff
Kenneth L. Kreitzer, who resides at 2109 Princeton Avenue #3, Camp Hill, Cumberland
County, Pennsylvania, 17011.
8. Since birth, the child has resided with the following persons and at the following
addresses:
Name
Address
Dates
Kenneth L. Kreitzer
Kenneth L. Kreitzer
2109 Princeton Ave. #3
Camp Hill, PA 17011
2109 Princeton Ave. #3
Camp Hill, PA 17011
Kenneth L. Kreitzer 148 Barrens Church Rd.
David Kreitzer (Plaintiff bro.) Dillsburg, PA
Cindy Kreitzer (Plaintiff's sister-in-law)
Frederick Rouse 202 Mountville Road
Linda Rouse Lebanon, PA 17046
Frederick Rouse 202 Mountville Road
Linda Rouse Lebanon, PA 17046
10/18/02 to present
week on/week off
1/30/00 to 10/18/02
week on/week off
7/28/98-1/30/00
week on/week off
7/28/98 -10/18/02
9/4/97 - 7/28/98
9. The natural mother of the child is Deborah Rouse, Defendant, currently residing at 303
Foxridge Road, Lewisburg, North Carolina, 27549. To the best of Plaintiffs
knowledge, Defendant Deborah Rouse resides with her husband.
10. The natural father of the child is Kenneth L. Kreitzer, Plaintiff, currently residing at
2109 Princeton Avenue #3, Camp Hill, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, 17011.
Plaintiff resides with the subject child.
11. Defendant Frederick R. Rouse, Sr., currently residing at 202 Mountville Drive,
Lebanon, Lebanon County, Pennsylvania, 17046, is the natural maternal grandfather of
the child.
12. Defendant Linda J. Rouse, currently residing with Defendant Frederick R. Rouse, Sr., at
202 Mountville Drive, Lebanon, Lebanon County, Pennsylvania, 17046, is the maternal
step-grandmother of the child.
13. The parents of the child, Plaintiff Kenneth L. Kreitzer and Defendant Deborah Rouse
were never married to each other and the child was bom out of wedlock.
14. Plaintiff previously filed a custody action in the Lebanon County Court of Common
Pleas at docket number 1997-20665. A true and correct copy of the most recent Order
of Court dated October 18, 2002, has been attached as Exhibit A.
15. Other than the Lebanon County case referenced in paragraph 13 above, Plaintiff has
not participated as a party or witness, or in another capacity, in other litigation
concerning the custody of the child in this or another court.
16. Plaintiff does not know of a person not a parry to the proceedings who has physical
custody of any of the child or claims to have physical custody or visitation rights with
respect to the child.
17. The best interests and permanent welfare of the child will be served by granting the
relief requested because:
(a) Plaintiff is the natural father of the child and wants to make sure the child is
properly cared for.
(b) Defendant Frederick R. Rouse, Sr., has entered a plea and is scheduled to
be sentenced in January of 2004 for the crimes of Indecent Assault
(involving a minor) and Corruption of a Minor. Defendant does not know
the details of these crimes since the record is sealed for protection of the
victims who are minors.
(c) It is expected that Defendant Frederick Rouse's sentence will include a
sexual offender evaluation.
(d) The child has been acting secretive when questioned about his grandfather
and step-grandmother (Defendants Frederick and Linda Rouse) and
Plaintiff is concerned for his son's safety.
(e) Defendant Linda Rouse is confusing the child by insisting that the child
call her mommy and by signing homework documents as though she is a
parent of the child. In addition, both Defendants Linda and Frederick
Rouse showed up at a parent-teacher conference against the express
wishes of Plaintiff.
(f) Defendant Deborah Rouse resides in North Carolina and has not been
significantly involved with the child since birth.
18. Each parent whose parental rights to the child have not been terminated and the person
who has physical custody of the child have been named as parties to this action. No
other persons are known to have or claim a right to custody or visitation of the child to
be given notice of the pendency of this action and the right to intervene.
W1-JEREFORE, Plaintiff respectfully requests that he be granted sole legal and physical
custody of his son and that the Defendants be prohibited from contact with his son until Defendant
Frederick Rouse until his sexual offender counselor indicates that no threat exists towards the child.
Respectfully submitted,
BY: /Costopoulos, JeannEsquire
ATTORNEY FOR PLAINTIFF
5000 Ritter Road, Suite 202, Box 779
Mechanicsburg, PA 17055
Phone: (717) 790-9546
f 03 PA Supreme Ct. ID No. 68735
DATED: ? Z/
KIiNNI-:TH L. KREITZER, IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS
Plaintiff CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
V.
No.
PRI[DERICK R. ROUSE, SR. and
LINDA J. ROUSE and CIVIL ACTION - LAW
DIf1301ZAH ROUSE, IN CUSTODY
Defendants
VERIFICATION
1. Kenneth L. Kreitzer, hereby verify and state that the statements made in the foregoing
Complaint in Custody are true and correct to the best of my knowledge, information, and belief.
I understand that false statements herein are made subject to the penalties of 18 Pa. C.S. §4904,
relating to unsworn falsification to authorities.
Date: Signature:]
enneth L. Krertzer
EXHIBIT A
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6 A TRUE AM CONFW COPY OF I$*
OROMW Fan M THB "TTEII
Kenneth L. Kreitzer, : IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS
Plaintiff LEBANON COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
CIVIL ACTION-FAMILY DIVISION
V.
Frederick R. Rouse, Sr. and No. 1997-210665
Linda J. Rouse,
Defendants
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ORDER
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AND NOW, to wit, this _LW4) day of October, 2002, it is hereby ORDERi*and rS) rn
DECREED that the Recommendations of the Custody Conciliator contained hereii re -
adopted as an Order of Court as if set forth at length.
-
This Order shall become a fina: Order unless one of the above-named parties files a
request fora hearing within fourteen (14) days from the date of this Order.
BY THE COURT,
PUi?SUAiv j IV ,7%GLc 2?,6
You are hereby notified
that this order has been
entered in this case.
is/ ROBERT J. EBY. P.J.
117-17-2002 OB:3BAM Keys and Burkett 1 717 1`741977 P.OS
Kenneth L. Kreitzer,
Plaintiff
v.
Frederick R. Rouse, Sr. and
Linda J. Rouse,
Defendants
IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS
LEBANON COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
CIVIL ACTION- FAMILY DIVISION
No. 1997-20665
CUSTODY" CONCILIATION SUMMARY REPORT
This custody action was originally commenced by Frederick R. Rouse. Sr. and Linda
J. Rouse, who filed a petition to modify custody on July 24, 2002. The conciliation
conference was held on September 9, 2002. A hearing was subsequently scheduled and
held on September 23. 2002 and completed on October 7, 2002. The following summary
is hereby submitted to the court as a recommended resolution and proposed Order.
A.) FACTUAL SYNOPSIS
This case has a rather unusual history. Father became aware, approximately two (2)
weeks' prior to Andrew's birth that Mother was pregnant and expecting a child. of whom
he was likely the Father. Father was contacted by an adoption agency to give his consent
to adoption. which he refused to do and instead went to Mother's father and stepmother.
Frederick and Linda Rouse (hereinafter referred to as Grandparents) to request their help
in halting any proposed adoption. Thereafter. once Andrew was bom. Grandparents
10-17-2602 02:39RM Keys and Burkett 1 717 27419717 H.04
intervened in stopping the adoption until such time as Father could prove his paternity
and request custody of Andrew. Since birth, therefore, Andrew has been raisedjoindy by
both Father and Grandparents, with them alternating weeks of custody of him. However,
when Andrew reached school age this fall, the issue of custody reached a head since
Father and Grandparents do not live within close proximity to one another and they could
not mutually agree on a school for Andrew. As a result, Grandparents filed a Petition to
Modify Custody and, in the meantime, Andrew began attending kindergarten while at his
Father's home and pre-kindergarten while at his Grandparents home. After the initial
conciliation conference, the conciliator directed all parties to enroll Andrew in one
school, that being the New Covenant Christian School. This was done to facilitate
Andrew's transition to school and was done without prejudice to either party prior to the
custody hearing. The issue of primary custody of Andrew remained undecided, with both
Father and Grandparents requesting physical custody of him.
Frederick R. Rouse, Sr. is the father of Andrew's Mother, Debra, who is not involved
in Andrew's life. Linda J. Rouse is Andrew's step-grandmother. The Rouses live at 202
Mountville Drive in Lebanon. in a home which they own and where they have resided for
the past six (6) years. Andrew- has his own room at that residence and the home is
appropriate. Mr. Rouse is the father of two (2) children, Fred, Jr. who is 37 years old and
Debra, who is 32 years old. Mrs. Rouse is the mother of one child, John, who is 33 years
old. The Rouses do not enjoy a close relationship with any of their children. The Rouses
have been married for 16 years and Mr. Rouse has other grandchildren besides Andrew,
while Mrs. Rouse does not. They have shared physical custody of Andrew with Father
since they first obtained Andrew from the adoption agency when he was two (2) days old.
They live in a four (4) bedroom house on two (2) acres of land and no other persons live
with them except Andrew. Neither of the Rouses work. Mr. Rouse having retired from
lone term employment in December 2001. Mr. Rouse is 58 years old while Mrs. Rouse
is 54, They attend church regularly, have enrolled Andrew in a private Christian school.
and spend all their time with Andrew.
Father. Kenneth L. Krcitzer, is 54 years old, and lives in a two (2) bedroom apartment
in Camp Hill, Cumberland County, where he lives alone with Andrew. Andrew has his
own room at that residence and the home is appropriate. He has lived in this residence
16-17-2002 08:33AM Keys and Burkett 1 717 2741977 P.05
for the past three (3) years. Father has never been married and has no paramour. He has
another daughter. Megan, who is 18 years old and with whom he did not enjoy a close
relationship until about two (2) years ago. Father is employed for the 158 Labor Union,
where he has been steadily employed for the past sixteen (16) years as a construction
laborer. His hours of work vary depending upon which assignment he is given, but for
the past year he has worked weekdays from 7:00 A.M. through 3:30 P.M. Father
regularly turns down offered overtime to be with his son. Father gets no regularly
scheduled vacation time through employment and has time off only when laid off, as he
is occasionally during the winter months. Father enrolled Andrew in public school near
his home in Camp Hill, where Andrew attended prior to the conciliation conference in
this matter. While in Father's care, Andrew also attends daycare during Father's work
hours, Magic Years Daycare, which is approximately two (2) miles from Father's home
and which provides Andrew with transportation to and from school each day.
Both parties in this matter are requesting primary custody of Andrew, and there is no
doubt that the alternating week schedule is no longer feasible now that Andrew has begun
school. being that the parties live quite a distance from each other and are not in the same
school district. For the past three (3) years, the shared custody arrangement was possible,
but is clearly no longer. In this particular case. there are no problems with either of the
parties concerning stability, as all have demonstrated such. Grandparents have lived in
their residence for 6 years, Father for 3. Father has been at the same employment for the
past 16 years, and Mr. Rouse also had long term employment prior to retiring. Both sides
in this case are capable of providin.- for Andrew, and the suitability of that care is not in
question. Further, all parties clearly love Andrew and are able to give him emotional
support, think of him first when making decisions. and are able to provide him with a fit
and proper environment in which to live.
The factors which the conciliator used to make a determination as to primary custody
in this matter are more intangible than is typical in a custody case, but all are factors
which lend themselves to consideration in a determination of Andrew's best interests.
First. the evidence at the hearing was clear that Father is more likely to give
Grandparents information and access to Andrew than vice versa. The testimony at the
hearing indicated that on several occasions, Grandparents have deliberately withheld
10-17-2602 00:40AN Keys and Burkett 1 717 2741977 P. cis
information from Father, including issues such as enrolling Andrew in the New Covenant
Christian school, where Andrew attended for quite some time without Father's
knowledge, or about his recent behavior problems in school. Mrs. Rouse stated that there
was no reason to tell Father because nothing could be done about it. They have spoken to
Andrew's pediatrician about requests for medical testing and never informed Father.
Mrs. Rouse even requested a psychological evaluation of Andrew without discussing it
first with Father. Grandparents are more likely to continue that trend in the future, as is
demonstrated by their refusal to allow Andrew to bring his toys to Father's or have his
toys from Father's house brought into their house. This secretiveness on their part is not
in Andrew's best interests, as all those providing care to Andrew should be able to
willingly and openly share information. The conciliator does believe Grandparents likely
engaged in this type of behavior due to their fear of losing Andrew, but the result is not
beneficial to him. Father does not possess this same type of secretive attitude and is more
willing to share information about Andrew with Grandparents.
Second, there is a concern that Andrew calls Mrs. Rouse "mommy" when in fact she
is not his mother. Grandparents stated at the hearing that they do not believe this is a
problem and that Mrs. Rouse is indeed Andrew's "mother figure." However, Andrew
does call Mr. Rouse "papa," a name which is more synonymous with a grandparent than
with a parent, and Grandparents both indicated that Andrew is aware they are his
grandparents, not his parents. The confusion lies in the fact that Andrew does have a
Mother. Calling his step-grandmother his mother is more than just a simple name in this
case since the word mommy contains psychological implications that at some point will
become confusing for Andrew, if they are not already. Being a mother figure is not
synonymous with being a mother and Father's objection to this is valid. Further. Father
raised the issue of Andrew's confusion when calling his step-grandmother mommy when
in fact Mrs. Rouse has never had any type of relationship with his Father and when
Andrew also sees Mr. and Mrs. Rouse share a bedroom. This is very likely to give
Andrew a skewed perspective of relationships and propriety as he matures. That
Grandparents do not seem to realize this is a cause for concern.
Third, Andrew's teacher at the New Covenant Christian School testified that
Andrew's behavior has been problematic since school began. He is tired, intense, off'
10-17-2002 08: 41PM Key and Burkett 1 717 2741977 P.07
task, highly distractible and inappropriate in class. She also finds him impulsive and
difficult, physically aggressive with other children to the point where he has been unable
to make friends. There was no testimony as to the cause of these problems, but there is
doubtless some relation between the ongoing custody problems between the parties,
Andrew's constant changing of homes, and his knowledge that the situation is unsettled
and hostile. It is imperative that Andrew be aware that he resides in one stable home so
that he is able to settle down and succeed academically. Andrew has lived his whole
short life alternating between his Father's and Grandparent's homes, so it is not
surprising that he cries and becomes clingy when an exchange is about to occur. Just
when be gets settled into a routine at one home, he is sent to the other.
In a case where all parties have standing to pursue primary custody, with all other
factors being equal, there is a slight preference towards the natural parent of a minor
child. In this particular situation, that slight preference is the basis for an award of
primary custody.
Father has done his best to provide for Andrew. He routinely turns down extra
income in order to spend time with his son, he took a parenting course to assure that he
could parent effectively. and he has made sure Andrew is well cared for during his work
hours. Further, Father has taken extra steps to meet with Andrew's pediatrician, not only
the pediatrician Father takes Andrew to. but also with the pediatrician Grandparents take
Andrew to, in order to discuss concerns and progress with them. Were it not for Father's
intervention prior to Andrew's birth. the intended adoption could have easily occurred,
and the fact that Father took positive steps to ensure it did not happen and to assume
responsibility for his son demonstrate Father's intentions for Andrew's best interests.
From the outset, Father has, of necessity, been required to share Andrew with
Grandparents. As a result, Andrew has had the benefit of receiving a great deal of love
and support from extended family and this can only serve to benefit him. However, since
Andrew has begun school. and since his behavior has deteriorated, it appears as though
the time has come to place Andrew permanently in one residence, while continuing to
foster a relationship with his family members. Because of that, and because it is in
Andrew's best interests to be with Father, primary custody will be awarded to Father.
16-17-2612 18:41PN Keys and Burkett 1 717 2741977 H.18
B.) RECOMMENDATION FOR CUSTODY
1) Legal Custody shall be with Father, Kenneth L. Kreitzer.
2) Physical Custody shall be as follows:
A) Primary physical custody shall be with Father, Kenneth L. Kreitzer.
B) Grandparents, Frederick F. Rouse, Sr. and Linda J. Rouse, shall have periods of
partial physical custody as the parties can agree, but at a minimum as follows:
i) On alternating weekends, beginning October 25, 2002 from 5:00 p.m. on Friday
until 6:00 p.m. on Sunday.
it) On each Wednesday evening from 3:10 p.m. through until Thursday at 12:20 p.m.
Beginning with the 2003-2004 school year, these periods of partial custody shall
begin each Wednesday afternoon when Andrew is dismissed from school and shall
extend until Thursday morning at the time Andrew begins the school day.
iii) Each party shall be entitled to two (2) weeks of uninterrupted periods of custody
during the year, which weeks shall be non-consecutive. A week shall be defined as a
seven (7) day period for purposes of this provision. Grandparents shall provide
Father with written notice of their selected weeks no later than May I" of each year,
and Father shall thereafter provide Grandparents with written notice of his selected
weeks no later than May I S'h of each year. The weeks selected do not have to occur
during the summer months, however, the holiday schedule will still have priority if a
holiday falls within a selected week.
C) The parties shall cooperate at all times in executing this custody arrangement for
Andrew's benefit.
D) Holidays shall be alternated by the parties, beginning at 5:00 p.m. the evening prior to
the holiday until 6:00 p.m, on the respective day, and shall include: Easter, Memorial
Day, Independence Day, Labor Day and Thanksgiving. The holiday schedule shall
begin with Thanksgiving with Father and alternate thereafter.
E) Christmas shall be divided into two (2) periods, the first period from 12:00 noon on
Christmas Eve until 12:00 noon on Christmas Day, and the second period from 12:00
noon on Christmas Day until 12:00 noon on December 26th. The Christmas Holiday
shall alternate from year to year. Grandparents shall have the first period in 2002,
107-17-20072 08:42PM Keys and Burkett - 1 71Y 2741y#(Y H.Uq
Father shall have the second period in 2002 and the schedule shall alternate on a
yearly basis thereafter.
F) Father's Day each year shall be with Father, from 4:00 p.m. the evening prior until
6:00 p.m. that evening.
G) The holiday and Father's Day schedules set forth above shall supersede the weekend
and weekday schedules,
H) On any occasions when Father requires childcare for Andrew in excess of two hours,
Grandparents shall be given the first option to provide childcare. Childcare provided
during the course of the usual and ordinary work week during employment hours is
excluded from this provision.
I) During the times when the child is in the custody of the other parry, the non-custodial
party shall have the right to have reasonable telephone contact with the child.
Reasonable telephone contact is defined as one phone call per day except in
extraordinary circumstances. In the event that the custodial party and child are not at
home when the non-custodial party calls, a return call will be made on the same day
to the extent practicable.
J) while in the presence of the child, no party shall make or permit any other person to
make any remarks or do anything which could in any way be construed as derogatory
or uncomplimentary to the other parry.
K) Each party shall have the duty to notify the other of any events or activities that could
reasonably be expected to be of significant concern to the other party in a timely and
amicable fashion.
L) Transportation shall be shared by the parties for weekend and holiday periods of
custody, with the party who is about to begin exercising a period of custody
responsible for transportation. Grandparents shall provide transportation both ways
for week day periods of partial custody and shall transport Andrew directly to school
during the school year, or to his daycare provider in the event school is not in session.
C.) RECOMMENDATION FOR ALLOCATION OF COSTS AND EXPENSES
Any additional costs and expenses shall be shared by the patties.
10-17-2002 68:42PM Keys and Burkett 1 Y1'r 2'(411jY'( F'. 10
D.) IDENTIFICATION OF COUNSEL
Jon F. Arnold, Esq. represented Plaintiff.
Colleen S. Gallo, Esq. of Reilly, Wolfson, Sheffey, Schrum and Lundberg
represented Defendants.
E.) ESTIMATED HEARING LENGTH
It is estimated that a de novo hearing in this matter would last one day.
F.) INFORMATION PROVIDED AT THE CONCILIATION HEARING
1) Fact witnesses: Other than the parties the following people testified:
a.) Kathy Felty- Andrew's teacher at New Covenant Christian School
testified about the pre-kindergarten program at New Covenant and
about Andrew's performance, both behaviorally and academically.
She indicated that Andrew has had some behavior problems, has
been aggressive and has had difficulty forming friendships.
b.) Beverly Kramer- Grandparent's former pastor's wife testified about
her relationship with grandparents and the fact that they are capable
of caring well for Andrew. She stated that Andrew calls his
grandmother "mommy."
c.) Pastor Arthur McHaffev- Grandparent's pastor testified that they
attend church and Wednesday night Bible studies regularly and
brine Andrew with them. He stated that their home is clean and
they provide good care to Andrew.
d.) Dr. Haggard-Andrew's pediatrician testified that he has been
Andrew's doctor since his birth. He discussed Andrew's health and
some difficulties he has had, none of them life threatening. He
indicated that he is required to consult with Andrew's other
pediatrician prior to making major decisions about Andrew's
health, due to the current court Order for custody. Dr. Haggard
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W -G
KENNETH L. KREITZER
PLAINTIFF
V.
FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR. AND LINDA J.
ROUSE AND DEBORAH ROUSE
. IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF
. CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
03-6357 CIVIL ACTION LAW
IN CUSTODY
DEFENDANT
ORDER OF COURT
AND NOW, Friday, December 12, 2003 , upon consideration of the attached Complaint,
it is hereby directed that parties and their respective counsel appear before Dawn S. Sunday, Esq. the conciliator,
at 39 West Main Street, Mechanicsburg, PA 17055 on Thursday, January 08, 2004 at 8:30 AM
for a Pre-Hearing Custody Conference. At such conference, an effort will be made to resolve the issues in dispute; or
if this cannot be accomplished, to define and narrow the issues to be heard by the court, and to enter into a temporary
order. All children age five or older may also be present at the conference. Failure to appear at the conference may
provide grounds for entry of a temporary or permanent order.
The court hereby directs the parties to furnish any and all existing Protection from Abuse orders,
Special Relief orders, and Custody orders to the conciliator 48 hours prior to scheduled hearing.
FOR THE, COURT.
By: /s/ Dawn S. Sunday, Esq. U
Custody Conciliator
The Court of Common Pleas of Cumberland County is required by law to comply with the Americans
with Disabilities Act of 1990. For information about accessible facilities and reasonable accommodations
available to disabled individuals having business before the court, please contact our office. All arrangements
must be made at least 72 hours prior to any hearing or business before the court. You must attend the scheduled
conference or hearing.
YOU SHOULD TAKE THIS PAPER TO YOUR ATTORNEY AT ONCE. IF YOU DO NOT
HAVE AN ATTORNEY OR CANNOT AFFORD ONE, GO TO OR TELEPHONE THE OFFICE SET
FORTH BELOW TO FIND OUT WHERE YOU CAN GET LEGAL HELP.
Cumberland County Bar Association
32 South Bedford Street
Carlisle, Pennsylvania 17013
Telephone (717) 249-3166
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KENNETH L. KREITZER, IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF
Plaintiff CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
VS. 03-6357 CIVIL ACTION LAW
FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR AND
LINDA J. ROUSE AND
DEBORAH ROUSE
DefendantS IN CUSTODY
ORDER OF COURT
AND NOW, this 1a 4( day of C 2004, upon
consideration of the attached Custody Conciliation Repo t is ordered aid directed as follows:
1. A Hearing is scheduled in Court Room No. ?f tbp b)"ACounty
Courthouse on the ?d day of X004wh£c1i ?me pE"stimony will be taken.
For purposes of the hearing, the Father, Kenneth L. Kreitzer, shall be deemed to be the moving party
and shall proceed initially with testimony. Counsel for the parties or a party pro se shall submit to the
Court and opposing counsel a memorandum setting forth each party's position on custody, a list of
witnesses who are expected to testify at the hearing, and a summary of the anticipated testimony of
each witness. These memoranda shall be filed at least ten days prior to the hearing date.
2. Pending further Order of Court or agreement of the parties, the terms of the prior Order of
the Lebanon County Court of Common Pleas dated October 18, 2002 shall continue in effect.
cc: Jeanne B. Costopoulos, Esquire - Counsel for Father
,Frederick and Linda Rouse - Maternal Grandparents
?)Seborah Rouse - Mother
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BY THE COURT,
W :11 V Z I t4lvr li'm
a,f, _OhiJHiCud 3i-I]. 3G
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KENNETH L. KREITZER,
Plaintiff
VS.
FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR AND
LINDA J. ROUSE AND
DEBORAH ROUSE
Defendants
IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF
CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
03-6357
CIVIL ACTION LAW
IN CUSTODY
CUSTODY CONCILIATION SUMMARY REPORT
IN ACCORDANCE WITH CUMBERLAND COUNTY RULE OF CIVIL
PROCEDURE 1915.3-8, the undersigned Custody Conciliator submits the following report:
1. The pertinent information concerning the Child who is the subject of this litigation is as
follows:
NAME DATE OF BIRTH CURRENTLY IN CUSTODY OF
Andrew T. Kreitzer August 29, 1997
Father
2. A Conciliation Conference was held on January 8, 2004, with the following individuals in
attendance: The Father, Kenneth L. Kreitzer, with his counsel, Jeanne B. Costopoulos, Esquire, and the
Maternal Grandparents, Frederick and Linda Rouse, who are not represented by counsel. The Mother,
Deborah Rouse, who resides in North Carolina, did not attend the conference or contact the conciliator.
3. The Lebanon Court of Common Pleas previously entered on Order in this matter on October
18, 2002 awarding the Father primary physical and sole legal custody of the Child and granting the
Maternal Grandparents partial physical custody on alternating weekends and every week from
Wednesday through Thursday. The Father, who currently resides in Cumberland County, filed this
Petition for Custody seeking to limit contact between the Child and the Maternal Grandparents. The
Mother, has not been involved with the Child since birth.
4. This custody situation has a complicated history. The Child initially resided with the
Maternal Grandparents for almost a year following his birth. Thereafter and until entry of the Lebanon
County Order in October 2002, the Father and Matemal Grandparents shared having physical custody
of the Child on an alternating weekly basis. When the Child started school in 2002, the shared custody
arrangement was no longer feasible, and the parties litigated the issue of primary physical custody
resulting in the November 18, 2002 Order in Lebanon County.
Other than the Father's request for elimination of the mid-week periods of custody as the Child
will begin school in the morning next year, it appears that most of the issues involved in these
proceedings arise from the high level of conflict between the adults rather than the needs of the Child.
The alternatives of counseling or mediation between the adults clarify roles and boundaries or a
custody evaluation were discussed at length at the conference. However, the parties were unable to
reach an agreement and it will be necessary schedule a hearing.
5. The Father's position on custody is as follows: The Father believes that the Maternal
Grandparents are interfering with the Father's relationship with the Child and are asserting unwanted
control over the Father's parenting. The Father noted that the Child refers to the Maternal
Grandmother as "Mom" and stated that the Child is confused by the Grandparents'overinvolvement in
the Child's schooling and upbringing. The Father proposed that the alternating weekend and mid-week
periods of partial custody for the Grandparents be curtailed to one or two Saturdays each month, which
the Father feels is more appropriate for the defendants in their role as Grandparents.
6. The Maternal Grandparents' position on custody is as follows: The Grandparents believe it
would be damaging to the Child to reduce contact with them. The Grandparents denied that the Child
is confused as to their role in his life and indicated that they strongly discourage the Child from calling
the Grandmother "Mommy". The Grandparents feel that the Father's actions at the time of the Child's
birth resulted in their initial commitment to raise the Child and the resulting strong bond of affection
which they now share with the Child.
7. The conciliator recommends an Order in the form as attached scheduling a hearing. It is
expected that the hearing will require at least one-half day. The Grandparents have not yet determined
whether they will obtain legal representation for the hearing. It is expected that the Father will offer
expert testimony at the hearing by the Child's counselor.
Date
Dawn S. Sunday, Esquire
Custody Conciliator
Frederick R. Rouse Sr. Defendant
Linda J. Rouse Defendant
202 Mountville Drive
Lebanon, Pennsylvania 17046
717-861-7613
Defendants in Pro Se
Kenneth L. Kreitzer
V.
Plaintiff
Frederick R. Rouse Sr. and
Linda J. Rouse
Defendant
Case No. 03-6357
DEFENDANTS ANSWER TO
PLAINTIFFS CIVIL ACTION
FOR MIDIFICATION OF
CUSTODY ORDER
Defendants Rouse Answer the Petition as follows:
1. It is not in the best interest of the child for the Plaintiff to be granted sole legal and
physical custody.
2. The child is not in and danger while in the custody of his grandfather and step-
grandmother (Defendants Frederick and Linda Rouse).
3. Defendant Linda Rouse has not been confusing the child and has never insisted that
the child call her mommy and never represents herself as anything else but a grandparent.
Neither Frederick or Linda Rouse have ever attended a parent teacher conference at the
child's school.
4. Defendants Frederick and Linda Rouse are not seeking full custody. Defendants
wish to seek Legal Shared custody with the child residing with his father in the school
year. Then the defendants would wish that the child would reside with them in the
summer months when not in school. The defendants also have some genuine concerns
that have been brought to their attention about needs that are not being met or dealt with
concerning the child. With shared custody Defendants would have the legal right to
inquire of the plaintiff and see that the child is being properly cared for.
5. List of Witnesses
Rev. Arthur Mahaffey - Subpoenaed
Andrew's relationship with the defendants
Erin Popernack - Subpoenaed
Andrew's attendance at daycare
Kelly Daniels - Subpoenaed
Andrew's attendance and class activity
Anne Leese - Subpoenaed
Andrew's attendance and class activity
Fredrick R. Rouse
Custody situation and accusations made against him.
Linda J. Rouse
Custody situation and accusations made against her.
Frederick R. Rouse, Defendant in Pro Se
Linda J. Rouse, fen ant in Pro Se
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KENNETH L. KREITZER,
Plaintiff
vs.
FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR. and
LINDA J. ROUSE and DEBORAH
ROUSE,
Defendants
IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF
CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
03-6357 CIVIL
CIVIL ACTION - LAW
ORDER
AND NOW, this 7 " day of April, 2004, continued hearing in the above captioned
matter is set for Friday, June 11, 2004, at 9:30 a.m. in Courtroom Number 4, Cumberland County
Courthouse, Carlisle, PA.
BY THE COURT,
Jeanne B. Costopoulos, Esquire
For the Plaintiff
Frederick R., Sr., and Linda Rouse
202 Moumville Drive
Lebanon, PA 17046
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KENNETH L. KREITZER, IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF
Plaintiff CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
VS. 03-6357 CIVIL
CIVIL ACTION - LAW
FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR. and
LINDA J. ROUSE and DEBORAH
ROUSE,
Defendants
ORDER
AND NO W, this -29' day of July, 2004, the order of the Court of Common Pleas of
Lebanon County, dated October 18, 2002, is herewith made an order of court but modified,
effective September 1, 2004, as follows:
1. Legal custody and primary physical custody of the child, Andrew T. Kreitzer, born
August 29, 1997, shall be in his father, Kenneth L. Kreitzer.
2. The defendants, Frederick R. Rouse, Sr. and Linda J. Rouse, shall have partial
physical custody as follows:
a. On alternating weekends as heretofore. Notwithstanding, the father shall
be entitled to two weeks of uninterrupted custody during the year to be exercised
with sixty (60) days' notice to the grandparents.
b. For one week during the summer school vacation to be exercised with
sixty (60) days' notice to the father. The father's rights of custody set forth in
paragraph 2.a., above, shall take precedence over this paragraph.
c. Christmas shall be divided into two periods, the first period from 12:00 noon
on Christmas Eve until 12:00 noon on Christmas Day, and the second period from
12:00 noon on Christmas Day until 12:00 noon on December 26`h. The Christmas
holiday shall alternate from year to year as heretofore.
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c. Holidays shall be alternated, as heretofore, beginning at 5:00 p.m. the
evening prior to the holiday until 6:00 p.m. on the respective day and shall
include: Easter, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, and Thanks-
giving.
d. Father's Day each year shall be with the father, from 4:00 p.m. the evening prior
until 6:00 p.m. that evening. The holiday and Father's Day schedule set forth above
shall supersede the weekend schedules.
3. During the times when the child is in the custody of the other party, the noncustodial
party shall have the right to have reasonable telephone contact with the child. Reasonable
telephone contact is defined as one phone call per day except in extraordinary circumstances.
4. While in the presence of the child, no party shall make or permit any other person to
make any remarks or do anything which could in any way be construed as derogatory or
uncomplimentary to the other party.
5. Transportation shall be shared by the parties as heretolore.
BY THE COURT,
Hess, J.
-'Jeanne B. Costopoulos, Esquire
For the Plaintiff
,- Frederick R. Rouse, Sr.
Linda J. Rouse
Pro Se
rn
Cq -OD -0
KENNETH L. KREITZER,
Plaintiff
V.
FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR.,
LINDA J. ROUSE and
DEBORAH ROUSE,
Defendants
IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF
CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
CIVIL ACTION - LAW
03-6357 CIVIL TERM
IN CUSTODY
IN RE: TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
APPEARANCES:
Proceedings held before the
HONORABLE KEVIN A. HESS, J.,
Cumberland County Courthouse,
Carlisle, Pennsylvania,
on Friday, April 2, 2004,
in Courtroom Number 4.
JEANNE B. COSTOPOULOS, Esquire
Counsel for Father
FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR., &
LINDA J. ROUSE, Pro se
FOR THE PLAINTIFF
Sandra Abby
Kenneth L. Kreitzer
FOR THE DEFENDANT
INDEX TO WITNESSES
DIRECT CROSS
5 12:
18 30
Erin Pauperneck 55
Ann Lease 59 63
Kelly Daniels 65 71
Arthur Mahaffee 72 80
Frederick R. Rouse, Sr. 85
2
INDEX TO EXHIBITS
FOR THE DEFENDANT
Ex. No. 1 - photographs
1 THE COURT: Ms. Costopoulos, you are the
2 moving party?
3 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Yes, I am, Your Honor. And
4 this is the case of Kenneth Kreitzer versus Frederick R.
5 Rouse, Sr., Linda J. Rouse and Deborah Rouse. It should be
6 noted that Deborah Rouse isn't present. She is the natural
7 mother of the child. She hasn't been part of any of the
8 proceedings regarding this child in Lebanon or in Cumberland
9 County.
10 THE COURT: And this is Mr. and Mrs. Rouse,
11 these are the maternal grandparents, am I correct?
12 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Maternal grandfather and
13 maternal step-grandmother.
14 I would like to start by making a kind of an
15 out-of-order phone call to the child's psychologist, who is
16 Sandra Abby. She was formerly with the Tressler Lutheran
17 Services, and I can't remember the name of what it currently
18 is.
19 (Whereupon, the following testimony
20 was conducted via telephone.)
21 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Hello, is this Sandra?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
23 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Hi. This is Attorney
24 Jeanne Costopoulos. I am here in open court in front of
25 Judge Hess.
4
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 MS. COSTOPOULOS: And we would like to swear
3 you in to give testimony in the case regarding Andrew
4 Kreitzer.
5 THE WITNESS: Okay.
6 Whereupon, SANDRA ABBY, having been
7 duly sworn, testified as follows:
8 DIRECT EXAMINATION
9 BY MS. COSTOPOULOS:
10 Q Ms. Abby, could you tell us what your
11 educational background is?
12 A Sure. I am a family nurse practitioner. I
13 graduated from Widener University with my Family Nurse
14 Practitioner in 1996. And 2001 I graduated from the State
15 University of New York at Stonybrook with a certificate as a
16 Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner.
17 Q And what do you do now? What is your job?
18 A My job involves psychiatric evaluations,
19 medication evaluations, and therapy on children and adults.
20 Q And how long have you been doing that?
21 A Two years.
22 Q And who are you employed with?
23 A Tressler Lutheran Services.
24 Q And have you been with them the entire two
25 years?
5
1 A Yes, I have.
2 Q And about how many cases do you have at any
3 given time?
4 A For therapy, meds or all together?
5 Q Just all together, the clients you have,
6 people coming in, patients I guess you would call them.
7 A At the present time?
8 Q Yes.
9 A Probably a hundred.
10 Q And how often do you deal with children?
11 A Probably seventy-five percent of my caseload
12 is children.
13 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Your Honor, at this time I
14 would leave t his for cross-examination to determine the
15 expertise of this particular witness as a psychiatric
16 evaluator of a child.
17 THE COURT: Do you have any questions?
18 MS. ROUSE: Not at this time, Your Honor.
19 MS. COSTOPOULOS: At this time I would like
20 to admit her as an expert.
21 THE COURT: Go ahead.
22 BY MS. COSTOP OULOS:
23 Q Have you had occasion to meet with an Andrew
24 Rouse, who is now age six?
25 A Yes, I have.
6
I Q Or Andrew Kreitzer?
2 A Yes.
3 Q When did you first meet: with him?
4 A I first met with him on May 8th of 2003.
5 Q And how many times have you met with him
6 since then?
7 A Fourteen times.
8 Q And for what purpose were you meeting with
9 him?
10 A The father brought him here originally
11 because he had concerns about Andrew.
12 Q And what were those concerns, and how did you
13 address them?
14 A He told me that the grandfather and himself
15 had what essen tially amounts to shared custody of Andrew
16 involving over nights. And he had advised me that the
17 grandfather ha d been charged with some indecent behavior
18 with children.
19 Q And what did you do as a result of this in
20 your dealings with Andrew?
21 A I originally did a psychiatric evaluation,
22 then I saw And rew for play therapy.
23 Q And can you summarize just Andrew's
24 situation, if you were to describe to us, you know, tell us
25 about Andrew a nd how he is mentally? Could you do that?
7
I A Sure. Andrew, over the course of seeing him,
2 has displayed more and more anxiety. I actually saw him
3 this morning, and he held my hand in the playroom, which he
4 has never done before. He wanted me to help him when he was
5 playing in the sand box, which he normally will play by
6 himself or ask me to do a few things. Today he wanted me
7 sticking very close to him. He, since I started seeing him,
8 has had difficulty, in that he has started to have bowel
9 movements in his underwear, which to me is a sign of
10 increasing anxiety.
11 And today he told me he was very concerned
12 that he may never see his Pop Pop again, because they have
13 been telling him that he may never see them again.
14 Q Who has been telling that?
15 A He told me his Pop Pop. But when I asked him
16 to specify, he will call his Pop Pop his grandmother and his
17 grandfather. He told me she had been telling him. He also
18 told me that daddy was worried because he was sleeping with
19 Pop Pop. And he told me that he always sleeps with Pop Pop
20 when he is at their house, that he never sleeps in his bunk
21 bed. And he also told me today that he has secrets with
22 them that he cannot tell me.
23 Q Has he told you that before?
24 A In the past he told me there were secrets.
25 But today is the first time he told me who his secrets were
8
1 with.
2 Q And in your dealings with him in the past,
3 did it seem like there were other secrets or that there were
4 secret things?
5 A When we play he will tell me things that him
6 and his dad did. He is always very reluctant to say
7 anything that happened at his Pop Pop"s house.
8 Q What kind of things does he say that he did
9 with his dad?
10 A He tells me he goes bowling with his dad. He
11 told me he had the Jurassic Park movie that he has watched
12 with his dad. He will tell me sometimes that he got in
13 trouble with his dad.
14 Q Does he talk about his grandfather and
15 step-grandmother at all?
16 A Only if I ask -- if I will say to him, well,
17 you were with your grandfather this weekend, what did you
18 do, he immediately clams up and will :say to me why do we
19 have to talk. Can't we just play. I usually don't press it
20 beyond that.
21 Q Based on your experience do you think that's
22 a normal thing?
23 A No. I think Andrew is under extreme stress.
24 Q Is there any explanation for why he wouldn't
25 want to talk about certain people or what he does with
9
1 certain people?
2 A Usually when children don't want to talk
3 about things they have been told not to.
4 Q Out of all of the -- what, I guess you said
5 you did fourteen sessions with Andrew?
6 A Yes.
7 Q What do you find the most -- out of the thing
8 that we should be most concerned about here?
9 A That he is getting more and more anxious,
10 that his situation is actually deteriorating instead of
11 improving.
12 Q Do you have any suggestions on how to resolve
13 that?
14 A There seems to be a lot of conflict about the
15 custody agreement. I believe there has been to be some type
16 of agreement on that that fits for all parties or meets
17 Andrew's needs.
18 Q What do you believe his needs are?
19 A I believe he needs to be in an environment
20 where there is consistent discipline, where the caregivers
21 that are dealing with him are consistent, they have the same
22 beliefs, and that they can talk together and work together.
23 Q Do you believe the kind of schedule that's
24 been going on, I believe currently it is alternating
25 weekends at the grandparents', plus Wednesday overnights at
10
1 the grandparents', do you believe that schedule could be
2 having any effect on Andrew?
3 A Andrew seems to have difficulty transitioning
4 from going to his grandparents' to going back to his home.
5 There is more incidents of him having bowel movements in his
6 pants after he has been with his grandparents. I believe it
7 is very disruptive in the middle of the week for him to be
8 moved somewhere else.
9 Q Does the relationship between Andrew and his
10 grandfather and step-grandmother appear, I don't know, like
11 the usual grandchild/grandparent type relationship?
12 A It is more similar to :relationships I have
13 seen with spouses who have split up. It seems more like a
14 parental relationship instead of a grandparent relationship.
15 Q Do you think that's healthy for Andrew?
16 A I think it is confusing for Andrew.
17 MS. COSTOPOULOS: I don't have anything
18 further.
19 THE COURT: Ms. Abby, can you hear me?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can.
21 THE COURT: I just want to explain to you the
22 setting that you are in. The grandparents, as you referred
23 to them, are the other party to this action, and they are
24 not represented by counsel. So I will permit them the right
25 of cross-examination as any other person would. They don't
11
1 have to ask any questions if they don't want to, but you
2 should be aware that you are being addressed by a lay person
3 and not by a lawyer. Okay?
4 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
5 THE COURT: Anybody want to ask any
6 questions?
7 MS. ROUSE: Yes, sir, I would.
8 THE COURT: Go ahead.
9 CROSS-EXAMINATION
10 BY MS. ROUSE:
11 Q Ms. Abby, can you hear me clearly?
12 A Yes, I can.
13 Q So you have only worked with information that
14 Mr. Kreitzer has given you?
15 A And the information I have gotten from
16 Andrew, correct.
17 Q Okay. Could there be any other reasons for
18 Andrew's actions and insecurity?
19 A He is obviously under stress. Beyond that, I
20 can't tell you why.
21 Q Are you one hundred percent positive that his
22 actions could be just because of the time that he is
23 spending with my husband and myself?
24 A I am sorry, I didn't hear your question.
25 Q Are you one hundred percent positive that
12
1 this child's reactions are because of the time that he is
2 spending with my husband and myself?
3 A Not one hundred percent.
4 Q Okay. Could it be possible that Andrew's
5 fears about the custody, that he will not answer you, is
6 because it may have a negative reaction? He is afraid of
7 telling you that he may not see us again?
8 A He was having difficulty from the first day I
9 ever seen him.
10 Q But Andrew has been aware that we have been
11 to court before, so he is a very intelligent little boy.
12 Would this not be in the back of his mind?
13 A He never mentioned any concerns about not
14 seeing you guys again until the last three or four sessions.
15 Q Is it true that poor behavior can be caused
16 by the lack of self-esteem?
17 A Not the degree of anxiety he is showing. You
18 don't usually see kids having anxiety from lack of
19 self-esteem. It is normally more depressive symptoms.
20 Q Okay. Is it possible, because you have gone
21 first, we have not been able to establish this, but could it
22 also be possible that it is known to us that Mr. Kreitzer
23 does not always get this child up for school, and that his
24 mother comes in and does so and takes him to day-care? His
25 mother also, quite a few times, picks this child up from
13
1 day-care, and he is between day-care daddies, not just us
2 and the other grandmother --
3 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Your Honor, I object to the
4 form of this question. It is almost like testimony.
5 THE COURT: She is ask'_ng her to assume if
6 that were true. I don't know whether it is true or not.
7 BY MS. ROUSE:
8 Q Is it possible that because the child is
9 being more than one place during the day and has a varied
10 schedule, this is very stressful to h'_m?
11 A He readily talks about his other grandmother.
12 He readily talks about school. He readily talks about
13 day-care. He doesn't seem to be stressed in any of those
14 areas.
15 Q Okay. Again, I feel at a little bit of a
16 disadvantage here because we never got a chance to talk to
17 you before this point. Andrew -- how do I phrase this,
18 Andrew has a stuffed dinosaur that he takes with him
19 everywhere?
20 A Yes, he does. I have seen it.
21 Q This has been more so in the past few months
22 than it has been in the past, am I correct?
23 A Yes. I never saw it in the beginning. I
24 have seen it lately.
25 Q Did Andrew -- when you say he is secretive
14
1 and he tells you about these secrets that he supposedly has
2 with either my husband or myself, did he tell you which one
3 of us he has these secrets with?
4 A He told me both of you..
5 Q Okay. The secrets that: Andrew has are with
6 my husband and myself?
7 THE COURT: Is that a question?
8 MS. ROUSE: Yes. I am verifying what she is
9 saying.
10 THE COURT: That is what she just said.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes. He said he has secrets
12 with both of you.
13 MS. ROUSE: I will not dispute this fact.
14 This may help you -- Your Honor, can I ask you a question,
15 sir?
16 THE COURT: Go ahead.
17 MS. ROUSE: To enlighten her, there is some
18 information that she needs to know.
19 THE COURT: You can ask her to assume that
20 certain things are or are not true.
21 MS. ROUSE: Okay.
22 BY MS. ROUSE:
23 Q Because Andrew was in a situation where his
24 mother virtually abandoned him...
25 A Okay. I am not sure I understand your
15
1 question.
2 Q All right. I was in a similar situation, and
3 this was brought forward to Andrew when Andrew started
4 asking questions about his mother. Arid he asked the
5 question as to why his mommy did not love him and where did
6 she go. And I felt at this time it was time for me to
7 relate to him my experiences, as I went through the same
8 thing, but it was with the father and not the mother. And
9 we shared them. And Andrew asked me are these secrets. I
10 said, they are my own secrets in my heart. I do not talk to
11 a lot of people about this.
12 Is it possible that Andrew has construed or
13 has understood that this must be a secret that must be kept
14 and he can't talk about it?
15 A I can't comment to what Andrew is thinking.
16 All I can comment to is he told me he has secrets. I can't
17 speculate what it might be.
18 Q Is it possible that that is what has
19 happened?
20 A I can't speculate to his intent. He just
21 told me he had secrets, and that he could not talk about
22 them.
23 Q Okay. Can it also be that there may be a
24 little bit of a personality clash between child and parent?
25 A Between who?
16
I Q Between Andrew and his father.
2 A Between Andrew and his father?
3 Q Yes.
4 A I think all children have some degree of
5 clash between their parents and themselves. Andrew never
6 really voices any concerns about his dad to me.
7 Q So is it possible that what Mr. Kreitzer has
8 brought up as being disrespect, could this also be a form of
9 a personality conflict?
10 A I am unaware of what the issues are
11 surrounding h im being disrespectful.
12 Q Disregard that question. Could the lack of
13 individual ti me being spent with Andrew also contribute to
14 his anxiety?
15 A He has never said anything about that. I
16 can't specula te.
17 MS. ROUSE: No further questions, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Very well. Thank you. Ms.
19 Costopoulos, do you have anything further?
20 MS. COSTOPOULOS: No. I don't have any
21 redirect.
22 THE COURT: Thank you very much, ma'am, for
23 your time. A nd we will hang up now. Thank you.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
25 MS. COSTOPOULOS: I would now call my client,
17
1 Kenneth Kreitzer.
2 Whereupon, KENNETH L. KREITZER, having
3 been duly sworn, testified as follows:
4 DIRECT EXAMINATION
5 BY MS. COSTOPOULOS:
6 Q Mr. Kreitzer, could you please state your
7 name and your current address, please, for the record?
8 A My name is Kenneth Lee Kreitzer. And I live
9 at 2109, Apartment #3, Princeton Avenue in Camp Hill.
10 Q And how long have you lived there?
11 A Just a little over four years.
12 Q And who do you reside there with?
13 A Myself and my son Andrew.
14 Q And what's Andrew's full name?
15 A Andrew Thomas Kreitzer.
16 Q And how long has he lived with you, solely
17 with you?
18 A Eighteen months now.
19 Q Could you briefly describe a history of how
20 it came to be that you have custody as of eighteen months
21 ago?
22 A Prior to that we had joint custody. He spent
23 a week at Fred and Linda's and a week at my house.
24 Q And when did you first even know you had a
25 son Andrew?
18
I A It was approximately seven years ago. In
2 August of this year it will be seven years. Two weeks prior
3 to Andrew being born I was contacted by Bethany -- I believe
4 it was Bethany Christian Services in Lancaster. And they
5 told me that -- they asked me if I knew someone named
6 Deborah Rouse, and I said yes. And they said that she was
7 having a baby, and she named me as the father. And it sort
8 of proceeded from there then.
9 Q What did they ask you?
10 A They said that she was adopting the child
11 out, and they basically wanted my signature. And I said if
12 the child was mine, there was no way I was signing any
13 adoption papers. And when I hung up the telephone I forgot
14 who I, you know, I didn't get the person's name that I was
15 talking to. So that was on a Friday. On Sunday I went down
16 and talked to Fred and Linda, whom I have only ever had met
17 one time. And Fred told me that he would help me if that is
18 what I wanted to do.
19 Q He would help you what?
20 A He would help me get custody. I told, you
21 know, I said I was going to take custody. His daughter
22 didn't want the child, I did.
23 Q And did you work together with him at that
24 point?
25 A At that point in time, yes. We had got an
19
1 attorney, Attorney Hill in Lebanon, and he represented both
2 of us. And in the meantime the child was born, on a Sunday,
3 I believe, or a Friday. Andrew was born on a Friday. And
4 Monday of that year was Labor Day, so Bethany Christian
5 Services, I believe, went in and picked him up on Tuesday.
6 By Wednesday the attorney that we had hired drew up a court
7 paper. And I think it was Thursday of that week we went
8 down and got the child and placed him in temporary custody
9 in Fred and Linda's home pending a DNA test.
10 Q To see if you were the father?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And how long did it take for the DNA test?
13 A Well, it took from I believe it was August
14 until January of the following year until Judge Eby actually
15 signed the paper naming me as the father now and forever.
16 The DNA test, I think, was taken in October of that year. I
17 am not sure of the exact date. It was in the fall. And
18 until I filed papers with the court -- at that point we had
19 separate attorneys at that point in time.
20 Q For the paternity part of it?
21 A Yes, yes. And until my new attorney filed
22 papers with the court and Judge Eby signed the papers, I
23 think it was in January of the following year, '98. And as
24 soon as Judge Eby signed the papers, I immediately filed for
25 custody.
20
1 What happened in the meantime from when Fred
2 and Linda had temporary custody, Fred sued his daughter for
3 full custody. And she went into the attorney's office
4 apparently and signed custody over to Fred.
5 Q Were you named in that custody action?
6 A No. I had no idea it was even taking place.
7 I just got a letter in the mail saying that that happened.
8 And Fred got full custody then. I th=_nk it was in
9 September. It was like a month after they had temporary
10 custody.
11 Q So when the child was about a month old?
12 A Yeah.
13 Q And then how long did it take you to get
14 hearings and end up being able to litigate the fact that you
15 wanted custody after they had already got custody from their
16 daughter -- from his daughter?
17 A I think we filed in January. And the
18 original court date was supposed to be in April, but Judge
19 Kline, who we were going to see, had a personal emergency,
20 and the court date was canceled. And it wasn't until August
21 of the following year. Andrew was almost a year old until
22 we finally got into court. I think it was August 3rd, I
23 believe, I am not sure exactly what date it was. It was in
24 August.
25 Q During the time period where you had
21
I initially started working together with Fred Rouse until it
2 became apparent that you were going to be at odds with Fred
3 Rouse, when did that become apparent to you?
4 A I believe it was right around the time the
5 DNA test came back, and it was positive, and things sort of
6 started souring at that point in time.
7 Q Was something specific said to you at that
8 time?
9 A Well, one of the things that was said to me
10 when I went down and Fred told me that he is my blood. He
11 is my blood, and you are not getting him. Those were his
12 exact words.
13 Q And that was around when the paternity test
14 was, January of '98?
15 A Well, the paternity test was taken probably
16 in October, and the results came back. But I had to present
17 the results to the court in Lebanon County. And also I had
18 to try to contact the mother, who at that point in time had
19 left the state, to come and contest the DNA test, or Judge
20 Eby was going to, you know, make it legally.
21 Q So it turned out to be a rather complicated
22 process?
23 A Yes. It was a complicated, lengthy process.
24 It took months.
25 Q Have you ever not sought full primary custody
22
1 of your son?
2 A No. That was my intention from the very
3 beginning. Also with Attorney Hill, I: met with him two
4 weeks -- Linda and I went into his office. Attorney Hill
5 was apparently their attorney, and they took me in to meet
6 him. And two weeks before he sent a letter to Bethany
7 Christian Services that that was my intent.
8 Q And what kind of problems have you had with
9 the child's grandfather and step-grandmother during the
10 course of you trying to have the child residing with you?
11 A Well, it started out that they had full
12 custody. And as things were progressing along with my
13 petition to the court to obtain custody, Fred and Linda let
14 me take Andrew one time when I believe he was about -- I am
15 not sure exactly how old he was, about five months old or
16 six months old. They let me take him up to my parents'
17 house. And when I returned him -- it was on a Sunday, when
18 I returned him that Sunday, they told me that -- I think a
19 couple days later when I went down to visit my son again,
20 they told me that they weren't going to allow that anymore,
21 that I didn't feed him properly or something. So for the
22 next -- from that point on I went to the Rouses' house on
23 Tuesdays and Thursdays to visit my son until I obtained
24 joint custody in August of '98.
25 Q In August of '98 is when you finally got into
23
1 court and they initially awarded a temporary week-on,
2 week-off kind of thing?
3 A Yeah. It was joint custody, joint legal
4 custody, joint physical custody.
5 Q That was a temporary order pending you still
6 seeking primary, is that right?
7 A That was an order that we have had and kept
8 for approximately up until eighteen months ago.
9 Q And at that time you dial obtain full sole
10 legal and primary physical?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What is the schedule you have been going
13 under now under the eighteen month old Lebanon County order,
14 the schedule that you have been going under?
15 A Of the old one?
16 Q The order that you have been going by up
17 until now.
18 A Until now, I have full primary -- I have
19 primary custody and full legal custody. The Rouses have
20 visitation every other weekend, from 5:00 on Friday night
21 until 6:00 on Sunday night. And they also have Wednesday
22 night, every Wednesday night. They come to the kindergarten
23 and pick Andrew up after he gets out o=F kindergarten. And
24 that's on a Wednesday night, Wednesday afternoon. And they
25 bring him back to kindergarten on Thursday.
24
1 And I believe also they have two weeks in the
2 summertime. And also we have holidays, that we split five
3 holidays that we alternate. And Christmas is an alternating
4 holiday, half a day, the first half of Christmas with them
5 and the second half with me one year. And then the
6 following year the first half of Christmas with me and the
7 second half with them the next year.
8 Q What do you believe is wrong with the current
9 setup that you have just explained?
10 A Well, for one thing Wednesday nights they
11 take Andrew out of the school district. They pick him up at
12 kindergarten and drive him thirty-eight miles to their house
13 and bring him back the next day. I don't really care for
14 that. As for the weekends -- when I -Found out that Fred was
15 arrested, you know, that happened like a week after I got
16 full custody, and I had reservations at that time, but I
17 thought that I would, you know, innocent until proven
18 guilty. And it drug on for almost a year, a little over a
19 year.
20 He kept getting continuances and
21 continuances. And I have great concerns because of what he
22 was arrested for, about my son being in his home and
23 overnight vis itations. My son tells me he sleeps with him.
24 He sleeps in the same bed that they do. I approached Fred
25 one time last June and told him I didn't think it was
25
1 appropriate under the circumstances, you know. He is
2 arrested for indecent assault, and he is sleeping with my
3 son. And I didn't, you know, I don't think -- I think it is
4 wrong.
5 Q What kind of a response did you get when you
6 approached him about it?
7 A His reaction was, yeah, we have been trying
8 to get him to sleep in his own bed.
9 Q Do you have additional concerns about how
10 often the child is seeing them?
11 A Yes. Linda Rouse allows my son to call her
12 mommy. It was brought up in the other court hearings that I
13 have problems with that. Linda Rouse is not Andrew's
14 mother. And he is confused I think as to what her role is.
15 He refers to both of them as Pop Pop, you know.
16 And I don't really like my son calling her
17 mommy. She encourages it. She will deny it, but she
18 encourages it. She knows that I don't like it, but she
19 encourages it.
20 Q Does your son continue to do that? Does he
21 refer to her as that in your presence'?
22 A Yes. He doesn't do it in my presence at
23 home, but when I pick him up on Sunday evenings, he will say
24 good-bye mommy, you know, right in front of me. I think he
25 does it because he knows I don't like it.
26
1 Q And are there any conflicts with the Rouses
2 as far as just the upbringing of your child, like certain
3 things you want and don't want him as your -- is there any
4 interference with your role as a parent?
5 A Well, I believe there is. The first day of
6 school this last year, I called them up the day before,
7 because the first day of school was basically for the parent
8 to meet the teachers and everything. And I called them up,
9 and I asked them to please, you know, come to my house
10 instead of picking him up at kindergarten, come to my house.
11 I was going to school. They showed up, they weren't
12 supposed to be there until -- they weren't supposed to pick
13 him up until like ten after 3:00. They were there like
14 2:30, twenty after 2:00, and was in the classroom, whatever,
15 talking to the teacher and stuff like that.
16 I believe that Linda Rouse does his homework.
17 Andrew gets his little papers to do his homework, and she
18 does his homework. And on the back she signs it. It says
19 parent's signature. She signs it as 'the parent. She puts
20 her name down as the parent. And then Andrew doesn't want
21 to do his homework at my house. I already did it at Pop
22 Pop's house, you know. I already did my homework. And I
23 have a difficult time getting him to do it.
24 He has already told me that he doesn't have
25 to listen to me. He has already told me that his real
27
1 mother, who at the time was -- I had taken Andrew to visit
2 his real mother in North Carolina last. March. And when he
3 come home from their house after a visit, he had told me
4 that his mother, he said, my mommy is really my sister.
5 Now, there is nowhere else he would have gotten that except
6 from Linda, you know.
7 And I feel that they are interfering with me
8 as the parent here. I believe little things they are
9 alienating my son from me. A lot of times when he comes
10 back from their house, it takes a couple days for him to
11 even listen to me. He is defiant and says no, and I don't
12 have to listen to you, and things of that nature.
13 Q And earlier when we we:ce listening to the
14 testimony of Sandra Abby, she was indicating about how the
15 child doesn't talk much about Fred and Linda Rouse even
16 though he talks about everybody else. Is that true also
17 when you are with him?
18 A Yes. When I pick him up or something, I will
19 say, well, how did your weekend go, did you have fun or
20 whatever, and he is just I don't want to talk about it. I
21 don't want to talk. He will never, ever say one thing about
22 what he did or anything, you know. And I just leave it
23 drop.
24 Q Are there any conflicts regarding religious
25 upbringing, that sort of thing?
28
1 A Yes. Fred and Linda take Andrew to their
2 church, and just recently, it has been. probably in the last
3 six months, Andrew has been talking to me about what's born
4 again, Dad, when is the end of the world. Am I going to go
5 to hell. What is hell, things of this nature. And he is
6 constantly worried about the end of the world with me. He
7 is always talking about it. When is the end of the world,
8 Dad, and this, that and the other thing. And I think that's
9 a little much for a six and a half year old son to be trying
10 to comprehend.
11 Q And he is not hearing these things, I am
12 taking it, while in your custody?
13 A No, he is not. I don't have anything against
14 religion, you know, Jesus loves me, the ten commandments,
15 and things of that nature. But when you start getting into
16 concepts of the other aspects of religion, I think it is a
17 little much for him.
18 Q Have you told this to the Rouses?
19 A No. I have never said anything.
20 Q Have you discussed his churchgoing with them?
21 A No.
22 Q Do you want him to continue going to that
23 church?
24 A No.
25 Q What kind of a schedule do you think would be
29
1 more conducive to a grandparent/grandchild relationship with
2 the Rouses and your son?
3 A I believe one Saturday a month would be fine,
4 no overnight visitation.
5 Q Do you object to them occasionally attending
6 school event s, that sort of thing, like grandparents do?
7 A If they are invited, like his graduation, or
8 if they have a play or something and ]: invite them, yes. Or
9 if Andrew wa nts to invite them, I have no problem with that.
10 Q Are there any other concerns you want the
11 Court to be aware of in determining whether or not to reduce
12 the current schedule from what it is to what you are
13 suggesting?
14 A My concerns are that Fred and Linda act more
15 like his -- especially acts more like his parent than the
16 grandparent. And I believe her influence on him is
17 undermining my ability to be Andrew's parent.
18 MS. COSTOPOULOS: I don't have anything
19 further, You r Honor.
20 THE COURT: Go ahead.
21 CROSS-EXAMINATION
22 BY MS. ROUSE:
23 Q Mr. Kreitzer, do you have any other children?
24 A Yes, I do.
25 Q And the child is...
30
1 A The child's name is Meahan, and she lives in
2 Dillsburg.
3 Q How old was your daughter when you finally
4 had something to do with her?
5 A I believe she was about: ten.
6 Q At the last custody hearing you stated that
7 you didn't have anything to do with her until she was
8 sixteen.
9 A No. I seen her a few times. And she visited
10 me when she was sixteen.
11 Q Okay. Were you married to her mother?
12 A No, I wasn't.
13 Q How old was your daughter at the time that
14 you sought to get custody of your son'?
15 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Your Honor, I object to all
16 this talk abo ut his daughter, which is not the subject of
17 this custody --
18 THE COURT: Overruled. But what I am not
19 here to try i s another custody case. I am assuming that you
20 are asking th ese questions because you think it has
21 something to do with this case?
22 MS. ROUSE: Yes, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: So I will let you go ahead.
24 BY MS. ROUSE:
25 Q When Andrew was born, how old was your
31
1 daughter?
2 A Fourteen.
3 Q So she was about thirteen or fourteen. Did
4 you have any custody agreement with the biological mother?
5 A No.
6 Q Did you ever pay child support for your
7 daughter?
8 A Yes, I did. It wasn't court ordered.
9 Q It wasn't court ordered. Was your name on
10 the birth ce rtificate for your daughter?
11 A Yes, it was.
12 Q Now, you state that you basically --
13 basically yo u didn't go to school functions, that you
14 weren't ther e for her little birthdays and so on?
15 A I attended her graduation from high school.
16 Q That's when she was, what, eighteen or
17 seventeen?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Now, so she was thirteen or fourteen when her
20 brother was born. It strikes me rather strange that if you
21 had the same rights of going for visitation and custody
22 rights of yo ur daughter as you would for your son, why did
23 you not do t his so the two could be siblings and have
24 exposure to each other?
25 A Her mother and I had an agreement that she
32
1 was raising the girl, and I could see her any time I wanted
2 to. There wa s no animosity between us.
3 Q But you did not opt to take this?
4 A Andrew has met his sister, and they get along
5 very well.
6 Q But you just said that the birthmother stated
7 that it -- we ll, you just stated it was a friendly
8 relationship, you could see this daughter at anytime --
9 A Yes.
10 Q -- but you stated that you did not have a
11 relationship really until -- and you just went to her school
12 graduation, so your daughter basically grew up without a
13 father?
14 A Yes. Basically.
15 Q So she did not have the option to have a
16 relationship with Andrew until she turned eighteen?
17 A No. She has watched Andrew a few times here
18 since I have had joint custody and custody.
19 Q But that was after she graduated from high
20 school?
21 A She come down to my house a few times here
22 when I had joint custody, which was more than eighteen
23 months -- she is twenty. She was about seventeen or
24 eighteen.
25 Q Well, her senior year in high school?
33
I A Yes.
2 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Your Honor, once again, I
3 renew my objection.
4 THE COURT: We need to move on. I think I
5 get the picture of the other daughter.
6 MS. ROUSE: Thank you.
7 BY MS. ROUSE:
8 Q Mr. Kreitzer, why in the world did you not go
9 to your own parents -- did you go to your parents for help
10 in retrieving your son, did you or did you not?
11 A No, I didn't.
12 Q But you wanted custody of this child right
13 off the bat?
14 A Yes, I did.
15 Q Then why in the world did you get Mr. Rouse
16 involved?
17 A Like I stated, when I hung up the telephone
18 when Bethany Christian Services called me, I didn't get the
19 name of the person who I was talking to. And after I
20 thought about it for a while, the only person that would
21 know where Deborah was was Fred, so I went down to talk to
22 him about his daughter and what was happening.
23 Q But you stated from the very beginning you
24 wanted sole custody of this child should it be yours. Why
25 did you come back to Mr. Rouse and still even agree to help
34
1 get this custody? Would it not have been easier for you to
2 leave the child in the Bethany Foster Home until the DNA
3 test came back and just leave us out of it?
4 A Hindsight, yes, it would have been. But at
5 the time --
6 Q Please. Thank you. You stated that you had
7 only met Mr. R ouse or I about one other time before. Can
8 you state when this was?
9 A It was Christmas I believe. I am not sure if
10 it was Christm as Eve. It was right around Christmas. I
11 think it was ' 96.
12 Q Would that have been Christmas Eve and
13 Christmas Day for dinner?
14 A I believe it was. Deborah had took me to
15 your house, ye s.
16 Q Where did you spend Christmas Eve night?
17 A I don't recall.
18 Q You don't recall?
19 A No.
20 Q A holiday, a Christmas, you have no idea
21 where you were?
22 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Asked and answered.
23 THE COURT: I don't either in 1996. Next
24 question.
25 BY MS. ROUSE:
35
1 Q Were you aware that there was a possibility
2 that you may not be the father of this child?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay. And how did you find that out?
5 THE COURT: I am sorry, I didn't understand
6 the question. How did he find out what?
7 BY MS. ROUSE:
8 Q Were you aware that there was a good
9 possibility that you may not have been the father of Andrew,
10 at that time, before he was born?
11 A I believe she was seeing someone else before
12 I started seei ng her, yes.
13 Q Okay. So basically you returned to our
14 residence, you went to our lawyer, but yet you still had the
15 option at this point of going to your parents and say, gee,
16 this is your g randchild, I need your help? Is it really
17 necessary that you got us involved to begin with?
18 A I believe you wanted to become involved.
19 What Fred said to me was if that's what I wanted to do, he
20 would gladly h elp me. And I accepted your help.
21 Q Were you aware that I had just been hired at
22 a good paying job?
23 A I think that was brought out in previous
24 testimony.
25 Q Did it make sense that I, for a grandchild
36
1 that was no relation to me, would give up a job that I had
2 waited for? Yes or no, Mr. Kreitzer.
3 A I don't know how to answer that question.
4 You know, if you had a job offer, I believe that was your
5 choice whether or not to take it or not take it.
6 Q But you were aware of this when you came to
7 me?
8 A After the fact. Not at the time.
9 Q Okay. Mr. Kreitzer, it: was either the end of
10 May or early June of 2002, did we meet: you at your dentist's
11 office?
12 A Yes, you did.
13 Q And did Andrew see the dentist before you?
14 A No. I really can't recall. I remember I had
15 a dentist ap pointment, and you come up and was with Andrew
16 while I was in with the dentist.
17 Q Did you not have Andrew with you at the
18 dentist?
19 A I believe I did, yes. He had an appointment.
20 I believe he had an appointment that day.
21 Q Thank you for clearing that up. Did you have
22 a lot of den tal work done in your mouth that year?
23 A Yes.
24 MS. COSTOPOULOS: I object to what his dental
25 work has to do with this, Your Honor.
37
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
THE COURT: I hope I will soon find out. Go
ahead.
MS. ROUSE: Your Honor, that will be brought
out when I question Mr. Rouse if that would be all right
with you.
THE COURT: Well, you are not going to be
questioning Mr. Rouse here. You are not an attorney. Mr.
Rouse will have to testify on his own.
MS. ROUSE: Do I not have the options of --
THE COURT: You are not a lawyer. You will
both take the stand, and you will be able to testify. Okay.
Now, go ahead and finish up your cross-examination.
BY MS. ROUSE:
Q Mr. Kreitzer, at the time that Andrew was
seen by the dentist, was it brought out that he had some
cavities in his molars?
A Yes.
Q Were you told or advised to take him to a
dentist that specialized in treating young children?
A The reason that they wanted me to go to the
dentist that specialized in children because Andrew would
not sit still in the dentist chair. And, yes, I was
advised.
Q Was this done?
A Yes.
38
1 Q When was this done?
2 A I can't recall the exact date.
3 Q Do you have any supporting documentation that
4 you took your s on to that dentist?
5 A Not with me today.
6 Q Okay. Were you laid off in the fall of 2002
7 until the sprin g of 2003?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Was that about a five month or so layoff?
10 A I was laid off from the end of October, I
11 think the last week of October until the last week
12 of -- let' s see, I started the last week of April, yes.
13 Q So you were home with Andrew at this entire
14 time?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did you attend any school functions with
17 Andrew?
18 A I took him to kindergarten and I picked him
19 up, yes.
20 Q No. Did you go to any field trips?
21 A No. I never got cleared through the legal
22 paperwork that they wanted.
23 Q Did you go to any field trips in his first
24 year of k inder garten?
25 A No, I didn't.
39
1 Q Did you volunteer like some of the other
2 fathers and mothers and grandmother for a day in the
3 classroom?
4 A No, I didn't.
5 Q So you have known for two years that you
6 needed a Children & Youth and a State Police clearance?
7 A I just never got it done. I was working, and
8 then when I g ot laid off I just never got it done.
9 Q Could you not have filled these out, like the
10 other parents did, at the beginning of the year?
11 A Yes. I probably could have.
12 Q Knowing that you were --- you were laid off
13 during the wi nter and you could take part in his school
14 activities?
15 A I can't anticipate a layoff. Some winters I
16 work, some I don't.
17 Q But should you not have done this to be
18 prepared?
19 A I guess I could have.
20 Q Yes or no, Mr. Kreitzer.
21 A Yes.
22 Q So for almost two years now Andrew has been
23 in school, an d the only thing that you have done is drop him
24 off and pick him up?
25 A Yes. And had a few conferences with the
40
I teacher, yes.
2 Q But he hasn't had any family member to go
3 with him on fi eld trips like the other children do?
4 A I guess not.
5 Q Yes or no, Mr. Kreitzer.
6 A No.
7 Q Does your son get colds and ear infections?
8 A Yes, he does.
9 Q And does he also have colds during the
10 summer?
11 A Occasionally.
12 Q Okay. Who gets your son up in the morning
13 and read y for school?
14 A I do.
15 Q Who takes him to school?
16 A Sometimes I take him to day-care.
17 Q Sometimes. Who does it on the other times?
18 A My mother.
19 Q When your mother takes him to day-care does
20 she get him o ut of bed?
21 A No.
22 Q What time do you have to be at work in the
23 morning, Mr. Kreitzer?
24 A 7:00.
25 Q So what time do you have to get Andrew up?
41
1 A I usually get him up between quarter of 6:00
2 and 6:00.
3 Q What time does Andrew go to bed?
4 A Sometimes about 8:30, 9:00.
5 Q Okay. How many times during the school year
6 does Andrew get his school picture taken?
7 A I believe twice, in the spring and the fall.
8 Q Have you ever called Mx. Kreitzer (sic) or I
9 and asked us if we would like a copy and even told us what
10 these pictures were like?
11 A No, I haven't.
12 Q I mean, excuse me, sorry. Did you even think
13 about making a phone call to ask us?
14 A No.
15 Q You want us to be treated like grandparents.
16 Is it only con siderate to ask us if wee would like a picture
17 of Andrew?
18 A Yes.
19 Q But yet you haven't done this?
20 A No.
21 Q Okay. Andrew just got a package of spring
22 pictures, did he not?
23 A Yes.
24 Q were you considering calling us and asking us
25 if we would li ke to order?
42
1 A I just noticed they were in his backpack last
2 night. Apparen tly he got them Wednesday.
3 Q So you don't check his backpack when he comes
4 home?
5 A He was at your house Wednesday night.
6 Q This is Friday. Did you not check it?
7 A I checked it last night. I said.
8 Q Mr. Kreitzer, do you have a good video
9 collection at home?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Andrew watches a lot of videos?
12 A Andrew has a considerable amount of videos,
13 yes.
14 Q But Andrew watches a lot of videos, yes or
15 no?
16 A I wouldn't say a lot. He has a lot of
17 videos. He oc casionally watches them,. yes. I can't say
18 whether it is a lot.
19 Q Well, Mr. Kreitzer, you mentioned the video
20 Jurassic Park. What is the rating on that movie?
21 A I don't know.
22 MS. ROUSE: Your Honor, I have that
23 videotape. Ca n I put it into evidence?
24 THE COURT: I don't think you need to put it
25 into evidence. If you just want to tell us --
43
1 MS. ROUSE: Jurassic Park, I do not know if
2 you ha ve seen it.
3 THE COURT: Yes. It scared the heck out of
4 me.
5 BY MS. ROUSE:
6 Q That's right. This is not a recently new
7 video, is it, Mr. Kreitzer?
8 A No. It is not.
9 Q So how long have you had this video?
10 A Approximately a year.
11 Q So Andrew would have been five years old
12 then?
13 A Probably, yes.
14 Q So he has been allowed to watch this movie?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And the rating on this is PG-13. Do you
17 think that's appropriate, if you are so concerned about your
18 son's upbringing and him being so upset, that he sit down
19 and watch a violent, bloody, gory movie like this?
20 A It is not real. I tell him that.
21 Q To tell a child it is :not real --
22 THE COURT: Ma'am, don't start to argue.
23 These cases are always difficult enough when one of the
24 litigants is also a party.
25 MS. ROUSE: Yes, sir.
44
1 THE COURT: I don°t want this grandma/dad
2 argument starting here. I can see it is just starting to
3 develop that tone.
4 MS. ROUSE: Thank you very much.
5 BY MS. ROUSE :
6 Q Mr. Kreitzer, do you pick Andrew up at our
7 house?
8 A I pick him up, and my parents come along,
9 yes.
10 Q The majority of time your parents drive and
11 you pick up your son?
12 A Yes, they do.
13 Q What is the reason for this?
14 A So that I am not -- aft=er what happened at
15 the Hershey Medical Center, when Fred and I had our little
16 argument, it was decided better that I not go there by
17 myself.
18 Q Then -- see how you brought up the Hershey
19 Medical Cent er, why was Andrew there?
20 A Andrew had his left testicle removed.
21 Q Do you know what was in that testicle?
22 A I found out about a month before that, but
23 apparently you knew for a couple years.
24 Q Do you know what the doctor removed from your
25 son?
45
1 A His left testicle. Other than that, at the
2 time we had jointly legal custody, apparently the doctor
3 talked to you more than me.
4 Q Mr. Kreitzer, did you not take your son for
5 the last checkup without Mr. Kreitzer (sic) and I? I mean,
6 excuse me, I am sorry. This is very confusing. Mr.
7 Kreitzer, did you not take Andrew for the last checkup to
8 see the specialist without Mr. Rouse and I?
9 A Yes, I did. But there was -- I had just
10 found out about it, and that day I was going down to talk to
11 him about Andrew's problem. At that point I didn't know
12 anything about that doctor at that point in time. And when
13 I found out, I called him up, and I went down to see him.
14 Q Your lawyer did not -- your present lawyer at
15 that time, did not write a letter concerning this? Did I
16 not hand you a -- we got to the point where we were
17 exchanging notes because of this he said, she said, I
18 didn't, he didn't, et cetera? And our lawyer suggested that
19 we write things out and that you sign for it to make sure
20 that you did get it?
21 A I believe that was after I found out and I
22 had related it to my attorney at the time, that you were
23 taking him to doctor's, and I didn't know anything about it.
24 Q Mr. Kreitzer, were you not at the doctor's
25 appointment the time before that we went jointly for
46
I Andrew's checkup, you took off work?
2 A We went, yes, to the Hershey Medical Center.
3 I thought we were referring to the doctor that he was seeing
4 before we went to the Hershey Medical Center.
5 Q Mr. Kreitzer, this is well after Andrew's
6 surgery. This is his checkups afterwards. Were you not
7 there with --
8 A Yes, I was.
9 Q And did you not go to the window with me and
10 the doctor's appointment was made?
11 A Yes.
12 Q But you are stating, Mr. Kreitzer, that you
13 did not know when the second appointment was after this last
14 custody hearing. And that appointment. is made a year in
15 advance.
16 A That is not what I am referring to. I am
17 referring to the doctor you had before we went to the
18 specialist at Hershey Medical Center.
19 Q Mr. Kreitzer, we are talking about the
20 specialist at Hershey Medical Center. I did not mention any
21 other urologist in Lebanon. We are talking strictly about
22 Hershey Medical Center, are we not?
23 A I believe I was a little confused there by
24 the question. I thought we were talking about the other
25 doctor also.
47
I Q So anytime that you have gone with us, or
2 even you went on your own, you had every chance to question
3 the doctor that removed your son's testicle as to what he
4 found?
5 A When --
6 Q Yes or no, Mr. Kreitzer?
7 A Yes.
8 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Your Honor, I object to
9 this again. What this has to do with our petition to reduce
10 time with the grandparents really --
11 MS. ROUSE: Mr. Kreitzer brought up Hershey
12 Medical Center, and I will bring up what happened.
13 BY MS. ROUSE:
14 Q Mr. Kreitzer, at the time that we went in
15 there, and it was suggested that Andrew have surgery, what
16 was your first response?
17 A My first response was concerning whether or
18 not Andrew would be able to have sexual relations when he
19 got older with one testicle. Apparently you and Fred
20 objected to that. I also wanted to know if he would be able
21 to grow facial hair and stuff because of the testosterone
22 that was produced by the testicle. That was my question to
23 the doctor.
24 Q Mr. Kreitzer, did not the doctor explain to
25 you before the papers were brought out to be signed and
48
1 answer all of these questions why this had to be done, and
2 that your son would most definitely be able to father
3 children, that there are plenty of males walking around with
4 one functioning testicle and had no problems?
5 A Yes, he did.
6 Q And you refused to sign that paperwork?
7 A No. I think I signed it, or the operation
8 wouldn't have been done.
9 Q Mr. Kreitzer, if memory serves me correctly,
10 you did refuse, and you and Mr. Rouse -- the doctor actually
11 walked out and said the two of you settle this, and I shall
12 be back. And I had to take care of Andrew. And that is
13 when you and Mr. Rouse went to the parking lot, am I not
14 correct?
15 A It was similar to that, yes.
16 Q Was it or was it not? Yes or no, please?
17 A Yes.
18 Q So the doctor had told you and explained to
19 you what a teratoma was, what the ramifications of this
20 were. And you refused to sign, and Mr. Rouse had to go out
21 with you and verbally have it out? And when you came back,
22 you decided to sign the paperwork, yes or no, Mr. Kreitzer?
23 A Yes.
24 Q So our concern and Mr. Rouse's concern was
25 not that Andrew could not father children, that a teratoma
49
1 can go into cancer, and that this could cause problems later
2 down the road? And that really the ability to father
3 children was secondary to the welfare of this child's
4 health, am I not correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Thank you. Mr. Kreitzer, you have stated
7 that you found out approximately two years ago about the
8 charges made against Mr. Rouse?
9 A I found out a week after I got custody, yes.
10 Q In that custody order you had fourteen days
11 to contest it, did you not?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Up until this time you were very much aware
14 that Andrew was going to church with us? In fact, you even
15 went to some of the religious pageants that Andrew was in
16 when he was an infant, yes or no?
17 A I went to one, yes.
18 Q Why is it up until -- well, up until this
19 point you have not made it a major fact about Andrew being
20 in church?
21 A Andrew didn't talk about hell and born again
22 and the end of the world until recently.
23 Q Mr. Kreitzer, Andrew was at our home for
24 9-11. I brought him home from school. We walked in the
25 house. The tower fell. Was this not frightening to your
50
1 son?
2 A I believe it was.
3 Q Is your son with you when the news is on
4 television, do you watch the news together?
5 A No.
6 Q You do not watch the news together at all?
7 A No. I read the paper.
8 Q You read the paper. Okay. Do you have the
9 radio on in the car when you are traveling with Andrew?
10 A The radio in my truck doesn't work.
11 Q So virtually you have not discussed anything
12 about Andrew , about 9-11, terrorism, or anything that he can
13 hear from hi s friends or from anybody?
14 A No.
15 Q So Andrew's concerns about the end of the
16 world is not really from church. It could very well be from
17 his surround ing, am I not correct?
18 A It is possible.
19 Q Yes or no, Mr. Kreitzer'?
20 A It is possible. I can't say how he would get
21 that, you kno w, how he would relate. I can't answer that.
22 Q So you are just assuming that the end of the
23 world is comi ng from our church and from his Sunday school?
24 A When he talks about being born again --
25 Q Mr. Kreitzer, yes or no, you are just
51
1 assuming that this is from our church?
2 A Yes.
3 Q When you had these concerns, you never even
4 considered calling Mr. Rouse or I and saying, gee, my son is
5 telling me this, would you, please, you know, is this what
6 you are being taught in your church? There could possibly
7 be another explanation for this?
8 A What was the question?
9 Q Did you ever consider calling Mr. Rouse or I
10 over concerns about this and asking us whether or not this
11 is coming from our church, or could there be another reason
12 for Andrew saying that there is the end of the world, yes or
13 no?
14 A No.
15 Q So, again, you are just assuming?
16 A (No response.)
17 Q Do you take Andrew in for regular dental
18 checkups?
19 A I haven't had him to the dentist in probably
20 a year.
21 Q Do you brush Andrew's teeth, or does Andrew
22 brush his teeth?
23 A Andrew brushes his own teeth.
24 Q Do you follow up behind that?
25 A No.
52
1 4 You don't check?
2 A I watch him brush his teeth. I tell him to
3 go in and brush his teeth. He goes in and brushes his
4 teeth.
5 MS. ROUSE: Your Honor„ I have material here
6 that states about the dental care of a small child. And the
7 fact that the molars are in the child's mouth just about u
p
8 to age --
9 THE COURT: But this isn't the time to talk
10 about it. Finish your cross-examination of him first.
11 MS. ROUSE: Well, Your Honor, we
12 have -- An drew has several cavities in his mouth.
13 THE COURT: You can tell me all about that
14 when the t ime comes. Right now you are questioning him.
15 MS. ROUSE: I have no further questions, Your
16 Honor.
17 THE COURT: Anything else?
18 MS. COSTOPOULOS: No, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. You can step
20 down.
21 MS. COSTOPOULOS: I don't have any further
22 witnesses, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Okay. Now, who would you like to
24 have take t he stand first?
25 MS. ROUSE: Can I ask you a
y question, Your
53
1 Honor? I had somewhat of a legal coach on this, and I think
2 I was misled. And I geared a lot of things on asking my
3 husband some questions, et cetera, and so on, and I am --
4 THE COURT: Well, if you can promise me that
5 there will be some questions and that we are not going to
6 get lost in some morass, I will let you do that.
7 MS. ROUSE: Your Honor, can I call my other
8 witnesses first because they would really like to testify
9 and leave.
10 THE COURT: That would be fine.
11 MS. ROUSE: I would like to Erin Pauperneck,
12 please.
13 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken
14 while the witness was located.)
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1 AFTER RECESS
2 Whereupon, ERIN PAUPERNECK, having been
3 duly sworn, testified as follows:
4 DIRECT EXAMINATION
5 THE COURT: Would you :Mate your name,
6 please, for t he record?
7 THE WITNESS: Erin Pauperneck.
8 THE COURT: And where do you live, ma'am?
9 THE WITNESS: Middletown, Pennsylvania.
10 THE COURT: Go ahead.
11 BY MS. ROUSE:
12 Q Good afternoon, Mrs. Pauperneck. Where are
13 you employed?
14 A Magic Years, with Knowledge Learning
15 Corporation.
16 Q And how long have you worked there?
17 A Since November of 2002.
18 Q What is your position there?
19 A I am the Director.
20 Q What did you start out as?
21 A The Assistant Director and Pre-K teacher.
22 Q Who brings Andrew to day-care?
23 A His grandmother or his father.
24 Q Who brings him the majority of the time?
25 A His grandmother.
55
1 Q Okay. Are there any other family members
2 from the Kreitzer family that bring Andrew to day-care?
3 A No.
4 Q Did Andrew's older sister ever bring him to
5 day-care do you know of?
6 A She has picked him up one or two times awhile
7 ago, but I don't know that she has ever taken him in.
8 Q Who picks him up from day-care the majority
9 of the time?
10 A His grandmother.
11 Q Does Andrew eat breakfast at day-care?
12 A I would say half the time he eats breakfast
13 there. Sometimes he comes in around 9:30.
14 Q Andrew has a chance to eat lunch before he
15 goes to school?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Is Andrew's enrollment interrupted in other
18 times where he just isn't there and then his father
19 re-enrolls him?
20 A Explain what you mean by that.
21 Q Are there months like during the school year
22 he just doesn't come, and then he starts coming back again,
23 like this past winter?
24 A Yes.
25 Q So it is an interruption of his routine?
56
1 A Yes.
2 Q The few times that Mr. Rouse and I have
3 brought Andrew to day-care, am I the one that brings him in
4 the building?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And do I always tell you if he isn't feeling
7 well, if he has eaten, or if he needs to eat?
8 A I mean, it has really only been like one or
9 two times. I can't answer that, that I can say yes or no.
10 Q Have you ever had to call Mr. Kreitzer's
11 mother to come pick Andrew up because Mr. Kreitzer didn't
12 show up? Had this happened before Christmas of this past
13 year?
14 A There was one time he was late. He called us
15 and told us that he was running late though.
16 Q Does Andrew seem to have colds?
17 A No more than any other child.
18 Q Is the day-care associated with any religious
19 organization?
20 A No.
21 Q Was it at one time associated with the
22 Catholic church ?
23 A I have no idea. I can't honestly answer that
24 for you.
25 Q Do you give out any kind of progress reports
57
1 on how well Andrew is doing or any type of thing like that?
2 A We do parent conferences if they need one.
3 But we don't hand out progress reports, no.
4 Q Does Mr. Kreitzer go to his parent/teacher
5 conferences?
6 A Well, it is only if parents want to set one
7 up.
8 Q But he has not?
9 A No.
10 Q So the first year he was in kindergarten,
11 which was last year, he didn't inquire: as to any type of
12 level of work or anything that Andrew was doing?
13 A In the Pre-K program?
14 Q Yes.
15 A It is not a thing that must be done. It is
16 just if parents have a concern or anything --
17 Q So if Mr. Kreitzer had a concern, he would
18 have asked you ?
19 A Yes.
20 MS. ROUSE: I have no further questions, Your
21 Honor.
22 THE COURT: Ms. Costopoulos, do you have
23 anything?
24 MS. COSTOPOULOS: I have no questions, Your
25 Honor.
58
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THE COURT: How would you describe Andrew?
THE WITNESS: I think Andrew is a great
little boy.
THE COURT: Good. Thank you.
I am assuming this witness will want to be
excused?
MS. COSTOPOULOS: No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: There is no objection, ma'am, if
you want to be excused.
MS. ROUSE: None whatsoever.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
Whereupon, ANN LEASE, having been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. ROUSE:
Q Good afternoon, Mrs. Lease. Where do you
work?
THE COURT: First of all, state your name for
the record.
THE WITNESS: Ann Lease.
THE COURT: And where do you live?
THE WITNESS: I live in Mechanicsburg.
THE COURT: Thank you. Go ahead.
BY MS. ROUSE:
Q Mrs. Lease, where do you work?
59
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A Camp Hill School District.
Q What is your level of education?
A I am working on my graduate degree right now.
Q How many years have you been a teacher?
A Six.
Q Kindergarten teacher?
A Yes.
Q The entire six years a kindergarten teacher?
A Yes.
Q How well is Andrew doing in class?
A He is doing very well.
Q He doesn't seem overly worried? He has
been...
A I have never seen him at all seem worried.
Q He is not overly anxious -- or has he messed
his pants in school at all?
A No.
Q There hasn't been any abnormal discipline
problems with Andrew?
A No.
Q Okay. Does Andrew seem to have any confusion
that I am his grandmother?
A Not that I am aware of. He has never said
anything to me.
Q Okay. Was Andrew proud of the extra homework
60
1 he did with me?
2 A Yes. He was happy to show me his homework.
3 Q Does extra homework help or hinder a child?
4 A It helps.
5 Q How long did you have Andrew before you left
6 on maternity leave?
7 A Well, I left November 19th. And school
8 started the end of August, so September, October, half of
9 November.
10 Q And you returned to work when?
11 A On March 3rd.
12 Q Before your departure on leave how many times
13 did you meet Mr. Kreitzer in person?
14 A Probably at least three times, maybe four.
15 Q Okay. Had Andrew ever been late for class
16 when you brought him in?
17 A No.
18 Q Mr. Kreitzer brought out the original
19 argument for this, that Mr. Rouse and I attend the
20 parent/teache r conferences. Did we ever attend a
21 parent/teache r conference?
22 A No.
23 Q Did I ever request one, or did Mr. Rouse ever
24 request one?
25 A No.
61
I Q So the only parent/teacher conference you had
2 is with Mr. Kreitzer?
3 A Yes.
4 Q When I bring Andrew in to class, do I inform
5 you of his mood, or if he seems to be ill, and that he has
6 had a good lunch?
7 A Yes.
8 Q So you know pretty much how he is going to be
9 for the afternoon?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Do the a.m. and p.m. kindergartens join
12 together for field trips?
13 A On occasion. Once a year.
14 Q And Mr. Kreitzer has never been on any of
15 these?
16 A We haven't had one yet.
17 Q I mean, like last year the classes also were
18 joined.
19 A I don't know what he did last year.
20 Q Okay. When I was assisting Andrew with his
21 homework, what I sent in, it wasn't mandatory that anybody
22 send in the actual work. Did I send in what he was doing so
23 you could see how he was doing on his own outside of class?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Was it satisfactory?
62
1 A Yes.
2 Q When I signed the first one where it says
3 parent and guardian -- you would like to know who was doing
4 the work with the child?
5 A Yes.
6 Q So I do believe, if memory corrects me, the
7 first one I si gned I put down grandparent in parentheses
8 with my name, or you don't recall?
9 A I don't remember.
10 Q But you had no -- I mean, I never -- did I
11 ever represent myself as anything else: but Andrew's
12 grandmother by marriage?
13 A No.
14 Q I never came in there and said, well, I am
15 his mother, et cetera, and I do this, whatever? I am
16 strictly a grandparent, like the other grandparents are?
17 A Right.
18 Q You have had no inkling whatsoever there is
19 anything else?
20 A Except for when he calls you mommy.
21 Q Yes. We have had to deal with this through
22 the years, beli eve me.
23 MS. ROUSE: No further questions, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Ms. Costopoulos.
25 CROSS-EXAMINATION
63
1 BY MS. COSTOPOULOS:
2 Q Is there anything you have noted about the
3 relationship between Andrew and his step-grandmother that
4 isn't like all the other grandparents you see at the...
5 A She is more in the classroom involved.
6 Q And are you aware that that's against the
7 natural father's wishes?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And that he has sole legal custody?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Does it appear that the step-grandmother
12 respects that?
13 A No. I don't think so.
14 Q Why do you say that?
15 A Because of the level of involvement.
16 Q And you indicated that the child calls her
17 mommy. How long have you been noticing that?
18 A I just heard him say that for the first time
19 probably last week or the week before.
20 Q And in what context did it come up?
21 A He said something about, you know, my
22 mommy -- I did this with my mommy -- or something. I don't
23 remember what we were talking about. But just referred to
24 her as my mommy or mommy.
25 Q How much interaction do you have with Andrew?
64
I A Well, I am with him for half a day, so... as
2 much as I am with any of my other students.
3 Q How many students are in your class?
4 A Twenty.
5 Q And does he ever talk about things he does
6 with his dad, things he does with his step-grandmother?
7 A He does.
8 Q What does he say?
9 A Off the top of my head„ nothing specific. I
10 can't remember.
11 MS. COSTOPOULOS: I don't have anything else.
12 THE COURT: Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
14 THE COURT: Again, if this witness would like
15 to be excused, I believe we can do that. If you would like
16 to be excused?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 MS. COSTOPOULOS: No objection.
19 Whereupon, KELLY DANIELS, having been
20 duly sworn, testified as follows:
21 DIRECT EXAMINATION
22 THE COURT: State your name, please.
23 THE WITNESS: Kelly Daniels.
24 THE COURT: And where do you live, ma'am?
25 THE WITNESS: I live at 430 Hidden Valley
65
1 Road, New Cumberland.
2 THE COURT: And I believe Ms. Rouse has some
3 questions for you.
4 THE WITNESS: Okay.
5 BY MS. ROUSE:
6 Q Good afternoon, Mrs. Daniels.
7 A Good afternoon.
8 Q Who do you work for?
9 A I am a substitute teacher for Camp Hill
10 School District.
11 Q What is your level of education?
12 A I have a B.S. in Early Childhood and a B.S.
13 in Elementary Education.
14 Q Were you Andrew's substitute teacher from
15 November of th is past year until about March?
16 A Yes, I was.
17 Q How was Andrew doing in class?
18 A Andrew was doing very well in class.
19 Q Did he seem to have any problems?
20 A Academically?
21 Q Yes.
22 A No. He was fine. He seemed to do very well.
23 Q Emotionally?
24 A For the time that he was in class he seemed
25 very happy.
66
1 Q Did Andrew seem to have any problems actually
2 knowing who I am, that I was his grandmother?
3 A No.
4 Q And I did tell you and made you aware of the
5 fact that he does call me mommy, that this is a problem that
6 we have had since -- that he calls me mommy?
7 A You did mention that, yes.
8 Q Did I ever represent myself as anything else
9 but his grandmother by marriage?
10 A No.
11 Q Okay. I was helping Andrew with his
12 homework. Was this a help for Andrew?
13 A Being as Andrew is repeating, this is his
14 second year, I believe that would be helpful.
15 Q Okay. So you don't see this as a hindrance
16 in any way?
17 A I wouldn't know why that would be a hindrance
18 when you are helping a child to learn.
19 Q Okay. How long were you there before you met
20 Mr. Kreitzer for the first time? How many times did you
21 meet him?
22 A I believe I met Mr. Kreitzer when he was not
23 working. And I believe he came a couple times to pick up
24 Andrew after school.
25 Q Did he question you about his work or how
67
1 Andrew was doing?
2 A The only thing -- he was only concerned about
3 the homework paper. That's all we really discussed. And we
4 really didn' t have much time to discuss things because I had
5 nineteen oth er kids that were going home from school.
6 Q Was Andrew ever late when we brought him to
7 school?
8 A Late?
9 Q Yes.
10 A No.
11 Q When I would bring Andrew in on Thursday
12 mornings, did I let you know if he had a good night's sleep
13 or if he seemed to have a cold or...
14 A I believe when he was ill one time you did
15 tell me that he wasn't feeling well.
16 Q Did Andrew talk about things that he did with
17 his daddy or with Mr. Rouse or I?
18 A We didn't have a whole lot of time to talk
19 about things. We only have three hours in kindergarten, so
20 it is pretty fast-paced. Once the children get in, we don't
21 have a whole lot of time to talk. And they don't really
22 have a sharin g time, at least they didn't while I was there.
23 Q Did Andrew come to school happy about the
24 time that he spent with Mr. Rouse and I?
25 A Yes. He never seemed unhappy at any time.
68
I Q He didn't seem secretive or hiding in any
2 way?
3 A Not to me, no.
4 Q Did Mr. Kreitzer confront you about the
5 homework situation? He didn't call you or ask to speak you,
6 he just came to the school and wanted to talk to you right
7 then and there?
8 A Well, he was picking Andrew up one way. And
9 he voiced his concerns about the homework paper that went
10 home with you. Andrew did the work with you. And then he
11 did not want to do the homework paper with his father.
12 Q And what was your response to this?
13 A My response was that I am a substitute
14 teacher. And that I was only following the orders of the
15 regular classroom teacher.
16 Q Did Mr. Kreitzer ever tell you that we were
17 good grandparents to Andrew and that he knew we loved his
18 son?
19 A We did discuss, I did say to Mr. Kreitzer
20 that you did love Andrew. And he did agree with me that you
21 were good to Andrew. We did discuss that, and say that you
22 were good to Andrew.
23 Q Did Mr. Kreitzer ever ask you about Andrew's
24 class progress when he picked him up from school?
25 A I wasn't there during conference time. I
69
1 believe he met with Mrs. Lease about that.
2 Q I mean, during his time that he was off of
3 work, did he -- because I know when I was there parents
4 would ask you about that day. Did Mr. Kreitzer ask you how
5 his son was doing?
6 A The only thing we discussed was his science
7 project that was due.
8 Q Is it important for a _family unit and to have
9 grandparents get involved and help a child get through
10 school and do the homework, especially if they can help out?
11 A I don't think it hurts any child to have
12 homework -- whether he does homework with a parent or a
13 grandparent, as long as the homework is being completed and
14 the child is learning.
15 Q Just before you left and Mrs. Lease came
16 back, this Dino or Godzilla, whatever he chooses to call it,
17 started to appear when Andrew came to school, am I correct?
18 A Yes. I saw that twice.
19 Q Did Mr. Kreitzer ever tell you why this
20 dinosaur was coming to class?
21 A No.
22 Q Who told you?
23 A I asked his teacher from last year.
24 Q And did I not also tell you that he was very
25 attached to this dinosaur, and it was like a security
70
I blanket to some children?
2 A Yes.
3 MS. ROUSE: I have no further questions, Your
4 Honor.
5 THE COURT: Ms. Costopoulos.
6 CROSS-EXAMINATION
7 BY MS. COSTOPOULOS:
8 Q Are other grandmothers as involved as Mrs.
9 Rouse is in children that you have been exposed to?
10 A It depends on who the primary caretaker is.
11 Q Well, if it is not the grandmother, I mean,
12 if a child is with a parent and just regular grandparent
13 relationships are with children, does this seem like the
14 typical grandparent/grandchild relationship?
15 A Well, we normally don't: send paperwork home
16 to grandparents, unless it is requested. And Mrs. Rouse was
17 a grandparent that requested to help with that, so...
18 Q Were you aware that the father didn't approve
19 of her doing the work?
20 A He did come in and tell me that, yes.
21 Q And did you stop doing it after that?
22 A I didn't. I called my principal and asked
23 her about the situation. And I called the regular classroom
24 teacher, and it was agreed upon that I should follow what
25 the classroom teacher had started in August.
71
I Q Is it necessary for other people to be
2 doing -- you said it might be helpful, but is it
3 necessary --
4 A From what I was told from the classroom
5 teacher and the principal and Andrew's teacher last year,
6 this was a second year of kindergarten. And they thought it
7 would be helpful to reinforce the concepts that they were
8 learning, and that it wouldn't hinder him in any way.
9 Q Did anybody ever explain to you why it was
10 his second year in kindergarten?
11 A Just that he was not mature enough, I guess,
12 and had not progressed far enough to go on.
13 Q Do you know who made that determination?
14 A I don't. I don't.
15 MS. COSTOPOULOS: I don't have anything else.
16 THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down.
17 1 am assuming this witness would also like to
18 be excused? Would you like to be excused?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you.
20 THE COURT: Very well. We will excuse you.
21 Whereupon, ARTHUR MAHAFFEE, having been
22 duly sworn, testified as follows:
23 DIRECT EXAMINATION
24 THE COURT: Could you state your name for the
25 record?
72
1 THE WITNESS: My name is Arthur Mahaffee.
2 THE COURT: And where do you live, sir?
3 THE WITNESS: 219 Maple Avenue, Manheim, Pa.
4 THE COURT: And, Ms. Rouse, you have some
5 questions?
6 BY MS. ROUSE:
7 Q Good afternoon, Reverend Mahaffee. What
8 church are yo u a minister of?
9 A We minister at Victory Lighthouse, located in
10 Lickdale, Pa.
11 Q How long have you been a minister there?
12 A About four and a half years.
13 Q How many years have you been a minister?
14 A About fifteen.
15 Q Have you had much experience in family
16 counseling?
17 A Yes. That's a part of our duties. We
18 normally have to do that.
19 Q How long have Mr. Rouse and I been attending
20 your church?
21 A A little over two years.
22 Q Are we members of your church?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Do we attend on a regular basis?
25 A Yes.
73
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6
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22
23
24
25
Q Has your youth group been to our home?
A Yes.
Q Have I been helping with the youth group when
asked?
A Yes. On occasion.
Q And filled in for Sunday school?
A Yes.
Q Do you visit our home?
A Yes. I have been there.
Q When we first attended your church, did we
make it plain and evident of the charges that were existing
with my husband?
A Yes. I am aware of that.
Q Did we ever make any effort whatsoever to
withhold information from the church body or from you?
A Not as much as I know.
Q Did we sit down and disclose with you
everything about our life?
A Pretty much in detail.
Q What would you say the relationship is
between Andrew and Mr. Rouse and I?
A Well, from what I observed, it is a pretty
close relationship. There is a strong attachment between
you, and a very caring and sensitive relationship with him.
Q Have I or Mr. Rouse ever presented ourselves
74
I as anything else but grandparents to you or any member of
2 the church?
3 A No. I never heard that.
4 Q And you have been aware of the fact that
5 Andrew has been calling me mommy, and that we have been at a
6 loss on how to cure this?
7 A I think it was mentioned already that he did
8 that.
9 Q Does Andrew enjoy going to church?
10 A Yes. I would say so. Usually, upon getting
11 there, he is very happy to be active in his class.
12 Q Is he well behaved in church and in Sunday
13 school?
14 A In church he is an active boy, but he is
15 generally well behaved.
16 Q Do we discipline him?
17 A Yes. I have seen that happen.
18 Q Are we overly rough with him?
19 A No. I don't believe so.
20 Q Do Mr. Rouse and I call you when we have a
21 problem regarding Andrew?
22 A Yes. That's happened a number of times.
23 Q How do we respond to your counseling and
24 advice?
25 A Well, I think you are very receptive to it,
75
1 willing to receive it.
2 Q Do we ignore your advice? Do we just blow it
3 off and just go our own way?
4 A No. I wouldn't say that that's a reaction.
5 Q Are you a grandfather?
6 A Oh, yes.
7 Q Several grandchildren?
8 A Yes. Five.
9 Q Do we participate in church activities?
10 A Yes. You have been there very regularly.
11 Q As a family?
12 A Yes.
13 Q With Andrew. Okay. Are you aware that when
14 we pick Andrew up on Wednesdays that he is wearing the
15 clothes that his father puts on him?
16 A Well, I am not questioning that, but I have
17 seen his appe arance when he arrives.
18 Q Are there times that he is there with worn
19 pants an d hol es in them, have you seen this?
20 A I have seen that.
21 Q Have you ever been really up close to Andrew
22 that you hugged him?
23 A Yeah. Well, I interact with him sometimes.
24 Q Have you ever noticed the odor of cigarette
25 smoke?
76
1 A I wasn't aware of that.
2 Q What is the appearance of Andrew when we take
3 him to church, when we have him on the weekends?
4 A Would you be more specific?
5 Q How is he dressed? Are his clothes neat and
6 pressed?
7 A He is dressed appropriately for church and
8 clean.
9 Q Do we have pictures of family members around
10 our home and in our home?
11 A Yes. Quite a number.
12 Q And you have seen pictures of Andrew's
13 siblings?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Has Andrew been upset lately in church?
16 A Yes. I have noticed that he is somewhat
17 disturbed at ti mes.
18 Q Do you have any knowledge as to why this
19 could be happen ing?
20 A Well, I would just judge from the situation
21 that he is bein g raised in and so on that there are
22 conflicts that possibly are disturbing him.
23 Q And we have tried to address this and sought
24 advice from you on this?
25 A Yes.
77
1 Q Knowing what Mr. Rouse has been accused of,
2 and you know Mr. Rouse and I, have you asked us to step back
3 in the church in any way, not participate or held back on
4 us?
5 A No. I haven't asked you to do that.
6 Q Have you advised us when we have told you
7 that Andrew has been questioning us about the situation that
8 we should lie to him or make up a sto-cy just to change his
9 mind to get his mind off this?
10 A Well, I think it is something that he is
11 confronted with. And that, you know, it won't go away just
12 by ignoring it. And I believe that you would have to
13 confront the issue to a point.
14 Q You would not advise us to lie to Andrew?
15 A I wouldn't advise you to lie to him, just to
16 give as simple as an explanation as you could for his
17 understanding level.
18 Q Do you see to it being better to be truthful
19 with a child so he can deal with the facts than to make up a
20 story or lie about an existing situation?
21 A Well, I think the truth. always comes out
22 anyway, so I think it is best to address it.
23 Q Reverend Mahaffee, would you have any qualms
24 about my husband being alone with your grandchildren?
25 A I haven't seen any behavior indications that
78
1 would warrant being overly cautious over it.
2 Q Reverend Mahaffee, Mr. Kreitzer has stated
3 that his son said that he has asked about the world, when
4 the world is going to end, the world is coming to an end.
5 Has this ever been taught in Sunday school class with
6 Andrew?
7 A Not to my knowledge. It would be above his
8 understanding level.
9 Q Does Andrew sit through an actual church
10 service with us other than when there is special music?
11 A I think there was one time on a Wednesday
12 night that he sat in on a Bible study that he seemed very
13 tired and didn't want to leave your side.
14 Q He fell asleep on the pew, am I correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q You weren't teaching about the Book of
17 Revelation, the end times, or anything at that time, were
18 you?
19 A No, ma'am.
20 Q So Andrew is not being exposed to any type of
21 religious teaching whatsoever about the world coming to an
22 end or anything that would be fearful for him? In fact,
23 just the loving of God and of Jesus?
24 A Yes. That would be more practical.
25 MS. ROUSE: No further questions.
79
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MS. COSTOPO ULOS:
3 Q Earlier you indicated you agreed that they
4 have disclosed just about everything about their life to
5 you?
6 A Yes. To the most of my knowledge.
7 Q What specifically did they disclose about
8 these criminal charges? What's your understanding of what
9 was alleged, and what was Mr. Rouse's position on the
10 allegations?
11 A Well, he claimed to be innocent. And to my
12 knowledge the convictions were never actually verified.
13 Q Are you aware that he entered nolo pleas to
14 several counts of indecent assault and corruption of minors?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Do you know what a nolo contendere plea is?
17 A Not in detail.
18 Q If I told you that a nolo plea is essentially
19 admitting that you have no defense to the case if it went to
20 trial, would th at change your position whether he was
21 maintaining his innocence --
22 THE COURT: Well, we have to be careful we
23 tell the pastor that a nolo contendere plea is also not an
24 admission to wh at is charged. With that understanding, now,
25 go ahead.
80
1 THE WITNESS: I would have to judge from the
2 behavior and so forth, that that may be an unfounded charge,
3 that it is still at this point unproven.
4 BY MS. COSTOPOULOS:
5 Q Do you have any explanation why Mr. Rouse,
6 while maintaining his innocence, would have acknowledged
7 that he couldn't convince twelve jurors that he didn't
8 commit any of these offenses?
9 A I think that one of the things and factors in
10 the case is lack of finances for legal counsel to really
11 pursue the case efficiently.
12 Q So it is your understanding that he thought
13 it better to have convictions on his record for indecent
14 assault and corruption of minors than to attempt to fight
15 the case because he didn't have any money?
16 A Well, I don't think he can fight the case and
17 get legal counsel without finances.
18 Q Is that what Mr. Rouse told you?
19 A Well, they have indicated that, yes.
20 Q The relationship between the Rouses and
21 Andrew, would you agree that it seems more of a parent/child
22 type of relationship due to their involvement than it would
23 be just your typical grandpa/grandchild relationship?
24 A Well, I would say that in lieu of the fact
25 that he doesn't have a natural mother there to bring about
81
1 the normal bonding that would happen :between a child and a
2 mother, I think that he sees Linda as a substitute for that.
3 And I think that that's his way of trying to achieve a
4 portion of stability in his growth.
5 Q Do you see any other of the Rouses'
6 grandchildren behaving that way?
7 A I have no contact with the others.
8 Q Do they ever bring any of their other
9 grandchildren to church?
10 A No.
11 Q Do you know how many other grandchildren they
12 have?
13 A I know they have several.
14 Q Have you ever met any of the other
15 grandchildren?
16 A No, ma'am.
17 Q Did the Rouses ever explain why they don't
18 have extreme involvement in their other grandchildren's
19 lives but they do in this particular child's life?
20 A They have shared with me the fact that they
21 have attempted to contact the mother, and she was not to be
22 found, as trying to bring about a relationship between the
23 real mother and Andrew. But, obviously, not living in the
24 same area does present a problem.
25 Q Are you aware that the natural father of the
82
1 child doesn't want the Rouses to have as involved a
2 relationship as they do with his son?
3 A Could I ask you a question about that?
4 THE COURT: Go ahead.
5 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, has there been a
6 standard established for grandparental behavior?
7 THE COURT: I am sorry,, I am missing your
8 question.
9 THE WITNESS: Is there actually a standard
10 whereby grandparents and their relationship with the
11 grandchildren, is it an established thing?
12 THE COURT: As a legal standard, no.
13 THE WITNESS: Then your question, I don't
14 know how to answer it, because I don't know the standard for
15 that kind of a relationship. So I don't know if I could say
16 whether it is an ordinary relationship or it is one out of,
17 you know, of extreme.
18 BY MS. COSTOPOULOS:
19 Q Well, are you aware that the natural father
20 of the child believes that he spends too much time and is
21 getting too much influence from his grandfather and
22 step-grandmother?
23 A I am aware of the fact that that has been
24 discussed.
25 Q Do you have any position, or have you given
83
1 any advice to the Rouses regarding how much they should
2 challenge the father's authority regarding the upbringing of
3 his son?
4 A Let me say that all the times that we have
5 been in counsel it has been with an attempt to be sensitive
6 to Andrew's needs rather than their own wishes. And their
7 concern has been for the child's welfare. And whatever
8 counsel I have given has been with that in mind.
9 Q Has there ever been any concern about the
10 relationship between the child and his natural father?
11 A There may be some concern, however, because I
12 am not really privy to his behavior and not having contact
13 with him, I cannot fully state, you know, that he is out of
14 order.
15 Q So have you ever even talked to the natural
16 father?
17 A Just in a brief passincf.
18 MS. COSTOPOULOS: I don't have anything else.
19 THE COURT: Reverend Mahaffee, is the Victory
20 Lighthouse, is that affiliated with any particular national
21 or international denomination?
22 THE WITNESS: It is an independent church,
23 however, I am licensed with the Assemblies of God.
24 THE COURT: Thank you very much for your
25 time. And if Reverend Mahaffee desires to be excused, why
84
1 he certainly can be or he can remain. We will leave that up
2 to you. Go a head.
3 Whereupon, FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR., having
4 been duly sworn, testified as follows:
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION
6 THE COURT: Mr. Rouse, would you state your
7 name, please?
8 THE WITNESS: My name is Frederick R. Rouse,
9 Sr. And I li ve in Lebanon, Pennsylvania.
10 THE COURT: Go ahead.
11 BY MS. ROUSE:
12 Q Mr. Rouse, are we married?
13 A Yes, we are.
14 Q How long have we been married?
15 A Seventeen years.
16 Q What is your level of education?
17 A High school graduate and four years of junior
18 college.
19 Q Do you have several military schools under
20 your belt?
21 A Yes, I do. Senior NCO, first sergeant
22 school.
23 Q How many years were you in the service?
24 A Thirty-seven.
25 Q What was your military specialty or your
85
I military occupational specialty?
2 A Number one, to survive, and, number two, Army
3 Aviation.
4 Q Were you responsible for a number of troops?
5 A At one time I had over three hundred fifty
6 people under me. And that was my biggest company that I had
7 as a first sergeant.
8 Q Did you have a security clearance?
9 A Yes, it is. It was secret.
10 Q What's the highest rank you attained?
11 A First Sergeant E-8.
12 Q Were you Honorably discharged?
13 A Yes, I was.
14 Q Are you a combat veteran?
15 A Yes, I am. Two times.
16 Q Which conflict?
17 A Vietnam.
18 Q Were you overseas for any other period of
19 time?
20 A I was in Korea for thirteen months.
21 Q When did you discover your daughter Deborah
22 was pregnant?
23 A In the spring of '96 I believe it was.
24 Q Did she constantly deny and try to hide this
25 from you?
86
1 A Yes, she did.
2 Q Did you ever sit down and talk with her and
3 tell her that you wanted this child, that you wanted to
4 raise this child?
5 A Never did, no. I counseled her, asking her
6 why she was wanting to do this and why did she get involved.
7 And when we fi rst brought her up here,, I told her her top
8 priority responsibility was to raise the other two children.
9 Q Did you ever threaten your daughter in any
10 way in order for her to sign the child over to you?
11 A Never.
12 Q Did anyone ever accuse you of this?
13 A Yes. I believe I was accused by Mr. Kreitzer
14 at one time.
15 Q Was I witness to this?
16 A Yes, you were.
17 Q Where did this take place?
18 A At our house.
19 Q Okay. Did you ever come home once you found
20 out that your daughter was pregnant and try to convince me
21 that we needed to raise this child, that it was our
22 responsibility in any way?
23 A No. Not at our age.
24 Q So we have established the fact that Mr.
25 Kreitzer came to you and asked for your help?
87
1 A Yes.
2 Q Was I upset because I had a very good job
3 lined up?
4 A No. You weren't upset. Your philosophy was
5 you would do what you had to do. And that's what you and I
6 both have. Our philosophy was we had to do what we had to
7 do.
8 Q But I really wasn't too pleased with the idea
9 of giving up a job that I had waited for?
10 A Exactly.
11 Q Was my father living with us at the time?
12 A Yes, he was.
13 Q Was he in ill health?
14 A Yes. He was a severe diabetic and also an
15 amputee.
16 Q What was his prognosis?
17 A Pardon me?
18 Q I am sorry. Did the doctor say my father had
19 long to live?
20 A The doctor said he wouldn't have much longer
21 to live, no.
22 Q My father was suffering from dementia at this
23 time?
24 A Right.
25 Q I had my plate pretty well full, didn't I?
88
1 A Exactly.
2 Q You and I had a life before Andrew was born,
3 did we not?
4 A Yes.
5 Q We went camping, movies, roller skating,
6 swimming, bike riding, I mean, we really enjoyed life?
7 A Exactly.
8 Q So we just didn't take these things up
9 because Andrew came in our life?
10 A No, we didn't.
11 Q Were we planning our retirement years looking
12 forward? After my father died, we knew he was going to die,
13 were we planning our retirement years:'
14 A Yes, we were.
15 Q And were any grandchildren in our picture
16 whatsoever?
17 A Nope.
18 Q It was strictly you and I going to enjoy our
19 golden years?
20 A Exactly.
21 Q We had planned on selling the house and going
22 to a smaller house?
23 A Exactly.
24 Q So this was really the last thing on our
25 mind. We did n ot want this responsibility, did we?
89
1 THE COURT: You are testifying. He is not.
2 MS. ROUSE: I am sorry.
3 THE COURT: We call that leading questions in
4 the law. You will be able to tell alL of that. You are
5 just telling me your testimony and you are getting him to
6 say yes.
7 MS. ROUSE: I am sorry,, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: That's not the way that works.
9 You can tell me your story when the time comes. If there is
10 anything in particular you want him to tell me -- and the
11 reason why I mention that also it is a quarter of 4:00, and
12 I don't want to deprive you of the full opportunity to hear
13 your case. And the courthouse closes at 4:30. Each side
14 has had about an hour and a half. So I do want to keep an
15 eye on the clock. And I know, Mrs. Rouse, there is probably
16 lots of things that you want to tell me from your
17 standpoint.
18 BY MS. ROUSE:
19 Q Mr. Rouse, Mr. Kreitzer has stated that we
20 limited his visitation with his son, that things really
21 started to go sour, is this true?
22 A No. It is not true. He had full reign of
23 our house. We never stopped him.
24 Q Where were you when Mr. Kreitzer came to
25 visit his son?
90
1 A At first I was in the house. And when he
2 came in, I wou ld let him in and I would go outside and work
3 in the garden.
4 Q Did Mr. Kreitzer ever make you feel
5 uncomfortable in your own home?
6 A Yeah. He stated to me one time I come in the
7 house after wo rking in the garden, and I was coming in just
8 to get a drink of water, and he said to me, he says, you are
9 interrupting my time with my son. I wasn't even going near
10 him and his so n in our den. I was going through the den to
11 get a glass of water. And then I was going back outside.
12 Q Is that door our main entrance and exit-way?
13 A It is our side door, yes, coming from the
14 driveway, whic h we would be coming from the garden.
15 Q We didn't use the front. door on a regular
16 basis?
17 A No.
18 Q That door was our main entrance and exit. So
19 it wasn't like you went out of your way to interrupt him?
20 A No.
21 Q Thank you. Were we required -- you had full
22 custody of Andr ew at this time?
23 A Exactly.
24 Q Were you required to even set up this
25 visitation?
91
1 A Not by our lawyer. My lawyer said we didn't
2 have to do a nything.
3 Q In fact, we were advised to do whatever we
4 wished?
5 A That's right. The lawyer said we could do
6 anything we wanted.
7 Q Why did you go against the attorney's wishes?
8 A Number one, I wanted the father involved in
9 the son, and the son involved in the father.
10 Q Okay. Was Mr. Kreitzer there for his son's
11 first Christmas?
12 A Yes, he was.
13 Q Was he able to go up into the bedroom and be
14 with his son, spend time with his son:?
15 A Yes, he did. He went up in his bedroom.
16 Q Was he able to put his son to bed?
17 A Yes, he did.
18 Q Change his diapers?
19 A Exactly.
20 Q Feed his son?
21 A Yes.
22 Q There was really no restrictions on him
23 whatsoever?
24 A He never had a restriction in our house.
25 Only one time I got on his case is when he came into our
92
1 house with some real strong after shave lotion. And due to
2 the fact that you have your allergies, I asked him not to
3 use it again. And he went with my wishes, and he said he
4 was sorry. He apologized for wearing the after shave
5 lotion.
6 MS. ROUSE: Your Honor, can I submit some
7 pictures? Can I show them?
8 THE COURT: They need to be marked first as
9 exhibits.
10 MS. ROUSE: Your Honor, there may be some
11 writing on these because these are actual duplicates out of
12 a photograph album. I just did the whole page.
13 THE COURT: Just show them to Ms.
14 Costopoulos.
15 BY MS. ROUSE:
16 Q Mr. Rouse, did we invite Mr. Kreitzer to go
17 with us to Hershey Park?
18 A Yes, we did.
19 Q We did not have to do that, did we?
20 A No, we didn't.
21 Q Did he go with us?
22 A To Hershey Park, I believe he did go one
23 time.
24 Q Did he seem to enjoy himself with his son?
25 A Yeah. I think so. We all tagged along
93
I together. I mean, we didn't say you go your way with your
2 son, and we a re going to go our way. We all huddled
3 together.
4 Q There was no animosity at this time --
5 A No.
6 Q Andrew wasn't quite four months old, was he?
7 A Right.
8 Q But yet Mr. Kreitzer has stated that there
9 were problems at this time?
10 A Yeah.
11 Q Is this the picture that was taken at Hershey
12 Park that yea r?
13 A Yes, it was.
14 Q Did Mr. Kreitzer also buy some?
15 A I believe he did, yes.
16 Q Are these pictures of Mr. Kreitzer in
17 Andrew's bedroom before we redid it?
18 A Yes, it is.
19 Q Is he happy there?
20 A Andrew or his father?
21 Q Andrew is quite little. His father?
22 A I believe his father was very happy.
23 Q Is this the first Christmas?
24 A Yes, it is.
25 Q Did you have a good time?
94
1 A Did he have a good time?
2 Q Did you --
3 A I had a good time, yes.
4 Q Did you and Mr. Kreitzer have a good time?
5 A I thought we were. We even invited him over
6 for supper several times.
7 Q Has there been open -- let me rephrase this.
8 We were established as having legal standing in this case
9 from the very beginning, were we not?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And Mr. Strohm made this quite clear,
12 and --
13 MS. COSTOPOULOS: I object to what Mr. Strohm
14 made clear. If there is any documents on this legal
15 standing.
16 THE COURT: You will have to rephrase the
17 question. I will say though that there is no question in
18 this case that you have standing. You wouldn't be here if
19 you didn't have standing.
20 MS. ROUSE: Thank you, Your Honor. I did not
21 understand it.
22 BY MS. ROUSE:
23 Q Mr. Rouse, have you and I invited Mr.
24 Kreitzer to go places with us?
25 A We took him to Knoebles.
95
1 Q And did he go?
2 A Yes, he did.
3 Q Have we ever been invited with Mr. Kreitzer
4 to go anywhere?
5 A Never.
6 Q He has never --
7 A Well, no. We invented that -- we went to the
8 4th of July there at Camp Hill, and we asked if he would go
9 with us. Well, we went the 4th of July, and then they
10 closed it because of the weather, and then we went back
11 Monday. And we called him up and we said we are going to
12 have a barbecue there, which we cooked at the house. And we
13 brought our food with us, and we asked him if he would come
14 with us, and he agreed to come.
15 Q Was this during our two uninterrupted weeks?
16 We didn't have to do this, did we?
17 A Exactly.
18 Q But we wanted Andrew to enjoy the 4th of July
19 with his daddy and be like a family unit?
20 A Exactly.
21 Q Have you been really concerned about Andrew's
22 welfare medically?
23 A Medically, yes.
24 Q Does Andrew brush his teeth, and do you or I
25 follow behind that?
96
1 A You are the one that brushes Andy's teeth, I
2 don't. Number one, I am not -- I have arthritis in my
3 hands. And I am to the point I worry about maybe squeezing
9 his cheek too tight, so I try not to get that involved in
5 trying to brush his teeth.
6 Q Has Andrew been complaining of tooth pain?
7 A Yes, he has.
8 Q It has been established that we met Mr.
9 Kreitzer at th e dentist. Did Mr. KreLtzer tell you that
10 your grandson had cavities?
11 A Yes, he did. He said he had six -- I believe
12 it was six cav ities.
13 Q Did he ever tell you that these had been
19 repaired?
15 A I have never heard of it, no.
16 Q Did he say that Andrew did well and
17 everything was fine, to ease our minds,, being that he told
18 us he had thes e cavities?
19 A Never.
20 Q Mr. Rouse, Mr. Kreitzer has made it quite
21 clear, he has through the years, that anything to do with
22 Andy's doctors or whatever should be none of our business,
23 that he should be handling this?
29 A That's what he has said, yes.
25 Q So it has made you very uncomfortable even to
97
1 approach him if you see a problem, because when we are in a
2 situation like this, it has turned around and gotten us?
3 A Well, what disturbs me about it the most is
9 the effect that I have full coverage on the child, and I had
5 full medical, dental and eye care for the child. And that
6 was interrupted. Due to the fact that I was a Federal
7 Government employee, I have got real good insurance. And
8 the child will never have to want.
9 Q But because of the custody change, we had to
10 drop this coverage?
11 A Exactly. Because he does not live in our
12 house long enough --
13 Q Do we have any permiss=ion from Mr. Kreitzer
19 to get this child treated in an emergency? Do we have any
15 written -- any insurance?
16 A We have asked him several times for a card.
17 And every time that we did get a card, the month after it
18 the card is expired. So we gave up on that issue of trying
19 to get a card for him. If Andy gets sick or gets hurt, we
20 have to contact him, if we can get him on the phone.
21 Q But we have no right at this time to --
22 A We have no legal right as far as treatment,
23 no. We do not.
29 Q I have got some pictures here. Was this
25 taken last month?
98
1 A Yes, it was.
2 Q Does that show a problem with the secondary
3 tooth and primary tooth at that time?
4 A Yes, it does.
5 Q Would you have liked Andrew to see a dentist
6 to see if there may be more problems?
7 A Yes. Due to the fact that he has got such a
8 cute smile, he needs his teeth fixed.
9 Q Was this taken last week?
10 A Yes, it was.
11 Q What does that picture show?
12 A It shows a cavity in the lower teeth.
13 MS. COSTOPOULOS: I object to his determining
14 what is a cavit y unless he is a dentist.
15 THE COURT: I am not sure I would know a
16 cavity if I saw it. Let me take a look at the picture.
17 (The picture was shown to the Court.)
18 THE COURT: Okay. Well-, he complains of
19 tooth pain. I understand.
20 BY MS. ROUSE:
21 Q And you noticed, when I brought it to your
22 attention, that he also had discoloration of his upper
23 teeth?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And is that a picture of that discoloration?
99
I A Exactly. And one of his back molars, and I
2 can't remember what side it is, at the top, you can actually
3 see inside the tooth. And if that's not a cavity, then what
4 is it?
5 Q Mr. Rouse, has anybody ever had to tell you
6 to take your child to a dentist?
7 A Never.
8 Q Did you see to it that your children got
9 regular checkups?
10 A Yes. Due to the fact that I was in the
11 military, I had --
12 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Objection to what he did
13 with his children, because we are not talking about his
14 children here today, Your Honor.
15 MS. ROUSE: I am trying to establish that a
16 reasonable adult takes their children in for regular dental
17 checkups.
18 THE COURT: I will take: notice of that.
19 MS. ROUSE: Thank you, Your Honor.
20 THE COURT: I have raised three of my own
21 kids.
22 MS. ROUSE: Your Honor, I also have
23 information in here -- there is quite a few articles, and
24 the dentist has noted about the importance about dental
25 care.
100
1 THE COURT: I think it is common knowledge.
2 MS. ROUSE: The fact that these also state
3 that there is a sealant that can be put on these rear molars
4 because the child keeps them until age=_ thirteen. And that
5 they should be seen at a dentist at a minimum of twice a
6 year. And that they should start at an early age. And that
7 Mr. Kreitzer has not done this.
8 BY MS. ROUSE:
9 Q To your knowledge has Mr. Kreitzer done this,
10 Mr. Rouse?
11 A To my knowledge, no.
12 MS. ROUSE: Do I need to submit these, Your
13 Honor?
14 THE COURT: No.
15 MS. ROUSE: Thank you very much, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: I understand.
17 BY MS. ROUSE:
18 Q Mr. Rouse, have we had problems with the
19 condition of the clothing thing that Andrew has come to our
20 house?
21 A Yes. We have at times. Being a single
22 parent, I can see where there could be problems, yes. And I
23 am not downgrading him due to the fact. that he is a single
24 parent. That's just what happened, but it does happen in
25 life.
101
1 MS. ROUSE: I have several pictures here of
2 conditions of things that have come to us.
3 THE COURT: Why don't you identify them
4 during your examination. That would probably be the most
5 efficient way to go about this. When you are on the stand,
6 you can show the pictures to me. Okay? Why don't we do it
7 that way.
8 MS. ROUSE: We have pictures here of clothing
9 he has come to us since the time Andrew was about two or
10 three years old up until just recently.
11 THE COURT: That's fine. When you testify,
12 you can have them marked and tell me what's in the
13 photographs.
14 BY MS. ROUSE:
15 Q Mr. Rouse, have you brought to it Mr.
16 Kreitzer's attention that Andrew's lips get really dry?
17 A Yes. In the fall, yes„ his lips will get
18 very dry, and they do bleed.
19 Q Have you asked him to please keep some type
20 of lip balm handy for Andrew to put on or for him to put on?
21 A Yes, I have.
22 Q Has Andrew come to our house with his lips
23 cracked and bleeding?
24 A Yes.
25 Q So this isn't something that just happened
102
I overnight?
2 A No.
3 Q Mr. Rouse, is this a picture of Andrew's
4 lips?
5 A Yes, it is.
6 Q About six weeks ago?
7 A Yes, it is.
8 Q Did he complain?
9 A Yes. He was complaining about his lips were
10 hurting.
11 Q And did we put some Chapstick on for him?
12 A Yes, we did. We carry it in the vehicle
13 also.
14 Q Mr. Rouse, did Mr. Kre:itzer ever come to you
15 and ask you about the charges made against you?
16 A Never has, no.
17 Q It has been brought up quite strongly about
18 the nolo ple a. You were taking this to trial until the last
19 minute, were you not?
20 A To be exact, yes.
21 Q You had been offered four plea bargains, were
22 you not?
23 A Exactly, yes.
24 Q And you turned them down?
25 A Right.
103
1 Q Were you sitting in your attorney's office
2 and did a phone call come in?
3 A Yes, it did.
4 Q Will you explain that situation?
5 A A phone call came in from Judge Kline to my
6 lawyer. And the lawyer told me, he says, set fast, I will
7 be back in a few minutes. I had no idea what was going on.
8 The lawyer left, went up to the courtroom where the judge
9 was already in a case, where they had taken a break. And
10 the judge ta lked to my lawyer. And that's when the plea
11 bargain came out. And Judge Kline is the one that said that
12 we are going to offer him this. And that's how the plea
13 bargain came out.
14 And it came back to me. And my lawyer told
15 me, he says, you ought to take this. The judge does not
16 feel comfort able about what's going on with you.
17 Q So Judge Kline had every opportunity to read
18 the complete file, all of the discovery evidence,
19 everything?
20 A Exactly.
21 Q Wasn't that explained to you that a lot of
22 the evidence that we had on the behavior of these two minor
23 girls -- the se are not male children, are they?
24 A No. They are female.
25 Q That it borderlined on the fact that because
104
1 of the Pennsylvania rape laws that we could not bring this
2 information forward?
3 A Exactly.
4 Q So basically it did come down to he said, she
5 said?
6 A That's what came out, yes.
7 Q And it was explained because of all of these
8 other sexual , whatever cases you want to call, that were in
9 the news at the time, that this was not the time to be going
10 to trial for this, he said, she said?
11 A That's what Judge Kline put out, yes.
12 Q So it was really -- you had no choice in the
13 matter, that it did not look good, because any solid
14 evidence you had was basically taken away from you?
15 A Exactly.
16 Q So you did you not see that it would be worth
17 risking seve ral years in jail?
18 A That's right. And that's what was instructed
19 me by my law yer.
20 Q So this isn't because you really wanted to
21 take this to trial, you really wanted to --
22 A I wanted to go to trial, yes.
23 Q And you maintain your innocence to this day?
24 A To this day, yes, I do.
25 Q The accusations were made against you when we
105
1 went to adopt the sibling group. Were there a lot of
2 problems from the very beginning with this?
3 A With the children?
4 Q With the two girls.
5 A Yes, there was.
6 Q Were the former foster parents deadset
7 against this for the two girls --
8 A All the way through it they were dead against
9 it.
10 Q Did we get harassing phone calls?
11 A We got a few, yes.
12 Q And there was virtually nothing we could do
13 about this?
14 A That's what we were told.
15 Q When the children, after they ran away, where
16 were the two girls placed?
17 A Back in their original foster home.
18 Q And were they not adopted?
19 A By the foster parents.
20 Q When the investigation was done by Children
21 and Youth, by state law is not the investigation supposed to
22 be done by the county where the alleged action took place?
23 A That's what's in the law, yes.
24 MS. COSTOPOULOS: I object to them testifying
25 what's in the law, Your Honor.
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1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 BY MS. ROUSE:
3 Q Mr. Rouse, who did the investigating? Was it
4 Lebanon Count y where we were residing,, or was it Lycoming
5 County?
6 A Lycoming County.
7 Q We were not made aware of the fact that this
8 wasn't up to par?
9 A Right.
10 Q Neither attorney brought this to our
11 attention?
12 A No. He did not.
13 Q How did I find this out?
14 A Going through the different law books at the
15 courthouse.
16 Q Mr. Rouse, at the time of the last custody
17 hearing were you being investigated by Children and Youth?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Was it regarding Andrew?
20 A Yes, it was.
21 Q The charges that were made against you,
22 according to the report, the type of suspected abuse was
23 immediate risk of sexual abuse?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Did not a caseworker come out and really go
107
1 over, both you and I, over this?
2 A She was with us for four hours, yes.
3 Q And what was the result of this?
4 A Unfounded. And a year after it was unfounded
5 my records we re expunged.
6 Q When you went up before Judge Kline, was he
7 also not the judge that handled the first two proceedings
8 with Andrew?
9 A Exactly.
10 Q We went up before Judge Kline twice, did we
11 not?
12 A Yes, we did.
13 Q So Mr. Kreitzer did take us up a second time
14 in front of t he judge?
15 A Yes.
16 Q He denied that. And he tried to modify the
17 custody order at that time?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Because he was unhappy with the arrangement?
20 A Right.
21 Q What was changed at that time?
22 A The second time we went?
23 Q Yes.
24 A That's when it went fifty-fifty.
25 Q No. Is this --
108
I MS. COSTOPOULOS: Your Honor, I object --
2 MS. ROUSE: I am sorry.
3 MS. COSTOPOULOS: She is testifying when he
4 is on the sta nd.
5 MS. ROUSE: I am sorry. I stand corrected,
6 Your Honor. I am sorry.
7 BY MS. ROUSE:
8 Q Mr. Rouse, is this the report that was made?
9 A Yes, it is.
10 Q Mr. Rouse, when you went before Judge Kline,
11 was he aware of the fact that you still had visitation
12 rights for yo ur grandson?
13 A I don't believe he did, no.
14 Q Did your attorney at the time of the
15 sentencing br ing up the fact that you did have visitation
16 rights?
17 A Yes. My attorney did, yes.
18 Q Was the State Police detective sitting there
19 and the prose cutor?
20 A Right.
21 Q Did they have any objection with you having
22 any contact w ith your grandson whatsoever?
23 A Never said a word.
24 Q They didn't seem one bit worried about this
25 whatsoever?
109
1 A No.
2 Q And neither did Judge Kline?
3 A No.
4 Q And Lebanon County doesn't see any problem
5 with this ei ther or the State of Pennsylvania?
6 A No.
7 Q Have any other accusations been made against
8 you?
9 A Not that I know of.
10 Q Have you ever been accused of t his or had any
11 formal compl aint made against you, legally aga inst you?
12 A Never.
13 Q So you have had a clean record up to this
14 point?
15 A Yes.
16 Q So virtually we are still back to the he
17 said, she sa id?
18 A Exactly.
19 Q Mr. Rouse, do you and I discuss our family
20 problems in front of your grandson?
21 A No. We do not.
22 Q Have we deliberately brought it in front of
23 Andrew ab out the custody hearing?
24 A No. Andrew has come to us and asked me to go
25 back into co urt and talk to the judge so Andy can live with
110
I us. He has done that several times.
2 Q And what was your response to this?
3 A I told him, I says, Andy, we are just going
4 to have to h ang in there and see what happens.
5 Q You haven't told Andrew to disobey his
6 father?
7 A No. I told him to be a good boy for his
8 father.
9 Q Does Andrew call his father daddy in front of
10 me?
11 A I have never heard him call him anything else
12 but daddy.
13 Q Do I refer to Mr. Kreitzer as daddy to
14 Andrew, even in our own home?
15 A You may say Ken in front of me, but you are
16 not saying t hat to Andy. You have always said daddy.
17 Q Have I encouraged Andrew to be a good boy?
18 When I kiss him good-bye, do I tell him to obey his daddy?
19 A Yes. We both do.
20 Q Have I ever told him he doesn't have to
21 listen to hi s father?
22 A You never have said that, no.
23 Q When Andrew was real little, let's say when
24 he was an in fant, my dad was alive at that time. Did not
25 your grandch ildren refer to my father as Gramps?
111
1 A Yes.
2 Q That would be like a great step-grandfather.
3 So we decide d that you would be Poppa and I would be Momma,
4 not mommy?
5 A We didn't decide that.
6 Q No. We decided to tell Andy that you would
7 be Poppa and I would be Momma so there would be no --
8 A No, no, no. We didn't decide that you would
9 be Momma. A ndy is the one that decided he is going to call
10 you mommy.
11 Q But he decided on his own to say mommy.
12 There is no way or anyway that I ever said, look, you can't
13 call me gran dmother. You must call me mommy?
14 A No.
15 Q Have we tried and discussed with Andrew that,
16 look, people do not like this, you should call me momma, not
17 mommy, that I am your grandmother?
18 A I have told Andy several times that it is
19 going to get me in trouble, and here we are.
20 Q But he still insists on calling me mommy?
21 A Exactly.
22 Q Do you have any idea how we could have
23 stopped him from doing this?
24 A Yeah. Just turn him over to his father and
25 say here he is.
112
1 Q But, I mean, other than spanking him or
2 putting him in a corner every time he says it, what do we
3 do?
4 A We don't spank him. He gets time out, but he
5 don't get spanks.
6 Q But, I mean, in reality once this child got
7 in his mind to call me this, we tried to break the cycle,
8 did we not?
9 A Yes.
10 Q We didn't encourage it?
11 A No.
12 Q And with other people, do I introduce myself
13 as his mother?
14 A No.
15 Q He hears me say that I am his grandmother?
16 A Exactly.
17 Q Was my father my biological father?
18 A No, he wasn't.
19 Q Did my father ever refer to me as his
20 step-daughter?
21 A Never did.
22 Q Did I ever say when we were with anybody this
23 is my step-fat her?
24 A Never.
25 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Your Honor, I object to
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1 this as well --
2 MS. ROUSE: Your Honor, I do have a reason
3 for this.
4 THE COURT: I am sorry.
5 MS. ROUSE: I do have a reason for this.
6 THE COURT: I am sure you do, but you can
7 tell me this as easily as he can. You are talking about
8 things that you did. Wouldn't it be better for you to tell
9 me that?
10 MS. ROUSE: I am sorry. Please, see, I am a
11 rookie.
12 THE COURT: And that's okay. I think what
13 you want to do with this witness is have him tell me things
14 that you think that he knows, not you.
15 BY MS. ROUSE:
16 Q Mr. Rouse, when I married you, you had your
17 daughter and your son, and my son also moved in?
18 A In my house, yes.
19 Q Did I refer to your -- excuse me.
20 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Objection, Your Honor.
21 MS. ROUSE: I am sorry. I will rephrase.
22 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Relevance.
23 BY MS. ROUSE:
24 Q Was it mandatory that --
25 THE COURT: Go ahead.
114
I BY MS. ROUSE:
2 Q Was it mandatory that your children call me
3 stepmother?
4 A Never did, no.
5 Q Was it mandatory for my son to call you
6 step-father?
7 A He always called me dad, your child.
8 Q So there would be no reason for me to walk
9 around and introduce Andrew as my step-grandson?
10 A No.
11 Q Did you ever introduce me as a
12 step-grandmother?
13 A To Andy?
14 Q To anyone?
15 A No. You are my wife.
16 Q Has Andrew come home from his father's to our
17 house and seemed upset because his daddy makes him call me
18 step-grandmother?
19 A Several times, yes.
20 Q He can't call me grandmother, it is
21 step-grandmother?
22 A Right.
23 Q Has Andrew called me step-grandmother in
24 front of his father?
25 A Yes, he has.
115
I Q And his father has encouraged this?
2 A Yes, he has.
3 Q His father was not pleased with him even
4 calling me grandmother?
5 A Exactly. Step-grandmother.
6 Q So this could be also a bone of contention
7 for the litt le child?
8 A It could be, yes.
9 Q Have we always called Mr. Kreitzer when we
10 were going to be late?
11 A Yes, we did.
12 Q Have we called Mr. Kreitzer when Andrew has
13 been sick?
14 A Yes. Several times.
15 Q Have we informed Mr. Kreitzer at the exchange
16 that we have had him on over-the-counter medicines, and what
17 hour we gave them, so he would know how to handle it?
18 A Yes, we have.
19 Q Do you smoke, Mr. Rouse?
20 A No. I do not. I have been off of them for
21 six months.
22 Q Why did you quit smoking?
23 A Number one, the doctor told me to. And,
24 number two, the price of them and everything, forget it.
25 Q So it wasn't just because there could be a
116
1 possibility of a custody hearing?
2 A Pardon me?
3 Q It wasn't just because there is a possibility
4 of a custody h earing?
5 A No.
6 Q Did you ever smoke in the house?
7 A I have never smoked in the house. The only
8 thing that smo kes in our house is our wood burning stove.
9 Q Mr. Rouse, do you smoke around Andrew --
10 excuse me. Di d you smoke around Andrew?
11 A I smoked around Andrew only outside. If he
12 was on the swi ng at our house, or when we went to go pick up
13 Andy at his fa ther's house, I got out of the vehicle. Yes.
14 I would light up a cigarette while I was standing there
15 talking to Mr. Kreitzer.
16 Q But you never did it in an enclosed area?
17 A Never in a vehicle, never. No.
18 Q Did you smoke in our family vehicle?
19 A No.
20 Q When we had dad's van, did you ever smoke in
21 that?
22 A Never.
23 Q In all of our eighteen years -- almost
24 eighteen years of marriage, did you ever smoke in the house?
25 A I may have walked in the house and come right
117
1 back outside. But I have never, if you want to say smoke,
2 smoke in the house, no.
3 Q Are you aware of the dangers of secondhand
4 smoke to a child?
5 A Not only to a child, anybody.
6 Q And does Andrew seem to have a lot of
7 stuffiness, runny nose, colds?
8 A Yes. More than -- I don't know if it is the
9 climate up here. We have been told that Andy doesn't have
10 allergies. But you can see during the different times of
11 the year how the child will get runny eyes, runny nose. And
12 he does have a cough.
13 Q Does Andrew come to our house with quite a
14 few videos?
15 A Pardon me?
16 Q Does Andrew come to our house with videos?
17 A Yes, he does.
18 Q Do we limit how much T.V. time Andrew gets?
19 A Andrew don't get that much T.V. time. If I
20 am in there sitting, he will want to watch maybe one of his
21 cartoon channels that we have at the house, but that's as
22 far as it goes. If he gets a half an hour, he is lucky.
23 Q Do I limit how much time he spends at one
24 time on the computer?
25 A Yes, you do.
118
1 Q Do we have educational programs for Andrew
2 for the compute r?
3 A Yes, we do. Or I should say, yes, you do. 1
4 don't.
5 Q It encourages eye and hand coordination?
6 A Yes.
7 Q It is not just Sponge Bob, fun and games?
8 A Exactly.
9 Q It is very educational?
10 A Right.
11 Q Do we encourage Andrew to play using his
12 imagination?
13 A Yes, we do.
14 Q Do we get involved with this?
15 A Yes. There are times I will get down on the
16 floor and play with him. And a lot of times he is strictly
17 with you.
18 Q How many pets do we have now?
19 A Four cats, one dog, and Andy's two Easter
20 ducks.
21 Q The animals are inside animals?
22 A Yeah. The inside animals are inside animals.
23 Q Have our animals ever been destructive?
24 A Never have.
25 Q Did we have a dog that we got rid of
119
1 specifically because of Andrew?
2 A Yes, we did.
3 Q And we had that dog five years?
4 A Yes, we did.
5 Q And the dog started to...
6 A Growl at him.
7 Q And we decided jointly that it was time to
8 find him a new home?
9 A Yes, we did. Well, I am the one that made
10 that decision. I said he is out of here.
11 Q So we made sure that Andrew knew that the dog
12 didn't die, because, unfortunately, we had to have two other
13 dogs put down not too long ago.
14 A Yes.
15 Q And we insured him that. he found a good home
16 for him, that he is being well taken care of?
17 A Yes.
18 Q So we didn't tell him, well, we just got rid
19 of him or anything like this?
20 A Yes, we did.
21 Q Did Mr. Kreitzer have a dog?
22 A Yes, he did.
23 Q About how long did he have that dog?
24 A I don't know how long he had him for sure,
25 but little Andy got attached to him. But he looked just the
120
I spitting image of the one we had.
2 Q Did Mr. Kreitzer get rid of this dog?
3 A Yes, he did.
4 Q What day did he get rid of this dog?
5 A On Father's Day.
6 Q So Andy can connect Father's Day with the
7 loss of his dog? Even though he know, where the dog has
8 gone --
9 A Yes.
10 Q -- he might be able to see the dog every now
11 and then?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Was this dog destructive?
14 A From what I have heard, yes, he was
15 semi-destructive. And some of the reasons why he had to get
16 rid of him was because of living in an apartment, according
17 to Mr. Kreitzer.
18 Q Did we ever get any articles of clothing that
19 had chew marks on them?
20 A Yes, we did.
21 Q Did Andy bring some toys that were chewed?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Is this one of the reasons why we would not
24 let the toys go back that we had for Andrew?
25 A I made that decision, that the toys would not
121
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go over.
Q And that was one of the primary reasons was
that we did not know the condition that they would come back
in?
A Exactly.
Q No other reason whatsoever?
A No other reason.
Q Do I make -- well, excuse me, I can answer
that question. Do we walk around skimpily dressed around
Andrew?
A Skimpily dressed?
Q Yes.
A No. Not unless you are talking about if we
are in the swimming pool. I mean, we have our swimming
trunks on.
Q So basically, even when we get out of the
pool, we make sure we are properly covered?
A Yes.
Q We just don't go walking around?
A Yes. Exactly.
Q We didn't have Andrew that much last year
because I had my --
A Knee surgery.
Q My knee revision. Andrew seemed upset about
that, did he not?
122
1 A Yes, he did.
2 Q We had quite a few thunderstorms last year,
3 didn't we?
4 A Yes, we did.
5 Q So the few times that vie had Andrew, did
6 Andrew actually sleep with us?
7 A No. He didn't sleep with us. He slept on a
8 cot.
9 Q And where was this cot?
10 A At the foot of our bed..
11 Q In our bedroom do we have a big glass sliding
12 door, a big win dow, and two other doors going out of this
13 room? And are these doors basically left open? Nobody goes
14 into a bedroom and just closes a door and is alone with
15 Andrew?
16 A Yes, we do.
17 Q Do you go out of your way to be alone with
18 Andrew?
19 A Do I be alone with Andrew? No, I am never...
20 Q Basically we are together with Andrew as a
21 family unit?
22 A The only time I am left alone with Andy is if
23 him and I go to church together on a Wednesday night. He is
24 in the back of the Suburban. And we go right to church and
25 come right back home.
123
1 Q And the only reason you do this alone is
2 because.. .
3 A You are sick.
4 Q Other than that, basically we are always
5 together?
6 A Basically we are always together, yes.
7 Q After I had my knee surgery, did Mr. Kreitzer
8 allow his son to have some extra time, even though he wasn't
9 spending the Wednesday nights and the weekends, that you
10 could go pick him up and bring him to the rehab center where
11 I was?
12 A Yes.
13 Q He didn't show any reservations of being
14 concerned abou t your time with him?
15 A No.
16 THE COURT: What time frame are we talking
17 about?
18 MS. ROUSE: This just was last year. This
19 was just last summer.
20 THE COURT: Well, I didn't know that. That's
21 what I am asking. Last summer. Okay.
22 MS. ROUSE: I am sorry, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: I am trying to get an idea of the
24 time fram e yo u are talking about, that's all.
25 THE WITNESS: This was last April.
124
1 THE COURT: Last April. Thank you.
2 BY MS. ROUSE:
3 Q So if you were this child predator and you
4 preyed on little children, did you not have adequate
5 time -- could you have said, Mr. Kreitzer, this is my
6 Wednesday night, I am taking the child home, or not even
7 said a word and just done the regular schedule with Andrew?
8 A Andrew went back home to his father.
9 Q I am asking you, could you have had the
10 option, that if you were this child predator, and that you
11 had any intentions of doing anything to Andrew, that this
12 would have been the prime time, and nobody would have known?
13 A I guess.
14 Q But you didn't do this?
15 A No.
16 Q Andrew's first year in kindergarten, did we
17 take part in any class activities?
18 A We didn't do anything.
19 Q We basically did what we were suggested to do
20 to let Mr. Kreitzer handle it?
21 A Yes.
22 Q When we had Andrew in New Covenant Christian
23 School, was he screened?
24 A Was he what?
25 Q Was he tested for kindergarten?
125
I A Yes, he was.
2 Q And do you know what those tests results
3 were?
4 A Andrew was doing very well. I believe it was
5 his first two years of pre-school.
6 Q But when they tested him for kindergarten,
7 did they sugg est he be put into the five year old Pre-K
8 instead of ac tual kindergarten?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Was the test results that he was very
11 intelligent?
12 A He had a real high attitude and -- whatever
13 way you want to call it. I can't even think of the name of
14 it.
15 Q And was it brought out even then that Andrew
16 was probably too immature to really handle kindergarten,
17 that he may n ot make it?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And they suggested --
20 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Your Honor, I object. We
21 don't know wh o they is. There were a:Ll these teachers here
22 today. They could have testified to that.
23 THE COURT: You have to be a little clearer.
24 MS. ROUSE: This was New Covenant Christian
25 School. And they have a screening process, where we had
126
I enrolled in kindergarten and --
2 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Again, Your Honor --
3 THE COURT: You can tell me about that.
4 MS. ROUSE: Okay.
5 BY MS. ROUSE:
6 Q Did Mr. Kreitzer come to our house June or
7 July of, let' s see, 2002 to discuss Andrew's school
8 enrollment?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Had he already enrolled him in Camp Hill?
11 A Yes, he did.
12 Q And did you bring it out as a concern what
13 the screening procedure was, and the fact that it was
14 suggested he may not be ready for kindergarten?
15 A Yes.
16 Q What was his response to this?
17 A Andy didn't need a screening in public school
18 for kindergarten.
19 Q Did he have Andrew screened in a public
20 school? Was this not mandatory?
21 A I don't think that it is mandatory.
22 Q But you don't know?
23 A I don't remember.
24 Q But he was made aware of this?
25 A Right.
127
I Q And he put Andrew into kindergarten knowing
2 this anyway?
3 A Yes.
4 Q When did you find out that your grandson
5 failed kindergarten?
6 MS. COSTOPOULOS: I ob-?ect to the term failed
7 kindergarten. It is not --
8 BY MS. ROUSE:
9 Q Well, when did he repeat -- that he had to
10 repeat kindergarten?
11 A It was two weeks, I believe it was, before he
12 was getting ready to go back to schoo'_ for the next year.
13 Q How did you get the picture of this? Did you
14 know that Eisenhower Elementary School only had
15 kindergarten?
16 A Right. We asked the other grandmother, and
17 the other grandmother said that I would have to ask Mr.
18 Kreitzer.
19 Q But Mr. Kreitzer never said that there were
20 any concerns?
21 A No.
22 Q As far as that year that we knew Andrew was
23 doing fine, that there were no problems, and that he was
24 going to be moving on to first grade?
25 A Right.
128
I Q There was no communication whatsoever?
2 A No communication.
3 Q So in your concern, did you discuss it with
4 me that maybe we should get involved, to make sure that
5 Andrew was getting the backup that he needed to make sure
6 that he would have no problems going into first grade, that
7 he would be caught up?
8 A Well, I didn't want to see him repeat
9 kindergarten again. And my thought is this little boy needs
10 to progress. He needs to make something out of himself.
11 Q Was Andrew happy about doing the extra
12 homework?
13 A Yeah. He set right there at the table.
14 Q Did we demand that he do this homework?
15 A No.
16 Q He voluntarily did this on his own?
17 A Exactly. Right after we had supper.
18 Q So it wasn't something that we sat down and
19 said, look, you know, I have got this, you are going to do
20 this, we have to do this?
21 A Never.
22 Q If he didn't feel like doing it, did we do
23 it?
24 A No.
25 Q So it was when he wanted to do it?
129
1 A When he wanted to do it.
2 Q Mr. Rouse, where does your son reside?
3 A Pardon me?
4 Q Where does your son live?
5 A My son lives in Jacksonville, Florida.
6 Q And where are your grandchildren, that you
7 of, that you have an idea of?
8 A My son has two. And they are with him as far
9 as we know. My daughter has two. Counting Andy would be
10 three.
11 Q Where is your granddaughter, and where is
12 your grandson by your daughter?
13 A As far as I know, the granddaughter is with
14 the grandpare nts. The son is supposed to be with her
15 mother, as fa r as we know. We haven't been in contact with
16 the daughter.
17 Q Has your son sent us pictures of his children
18 that we have hanging on the wall, and he sent us Christmas
19 cards?
20 A No.
21 Q Did we not get a picture of your
22 granddaughter on the wall?
23 A Yes, we did.
24 Q So we did get pictures and Christmas cards
25 from your son ?
130
I A Yes.
2 Q Is there a reason why that you are cut-off
3 from your son somewhat?
4 A He is with his mother. He is with my
5 ex-wife.
6 Q When Andrew was just a few months old, did
7 you get a tele phone call on your birthday stating happy
8 birthday, Dad, Debby is in jail?
9 A Yes, I did.
10 Q And up until this time --
11 THE COURT: Who is Debbie?
12 THE WITNESS: Debbie is Andy's mother.
13 MS. ROUSE: Excuse me, Your Honor. That is
14 Andrew's mother.
15 BY MS. ROUSE:
16 Q Up until this time did your son not give you
17 the impression that his sister was doing well, everything
18 was fine, and that the grandchildren were fine?
19 A That's everything we got.
20 Q Why was your daughter in jail?
21 A Two counts of child neglect and petty
22 larceny.
23 THE COURT: And with that we have to stop for
24 today. We have run out of time. Thank you. You can step
25 down, sir.
131
1 I will have my secretary contact both sides
2 to this controversy. Before we adjourn for today, there
3 have been some exhibits offered. Are there any objections
4 to any of these photographs, Ms. Costopoulos?
5 MS. COSTOPOULOS: No, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Do you have any exhibits that you
7 wanted to proffer?
8 MS. COSTOPOULOS: No, Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Okay. You may, however, between
10 now and the time my secretary calls you -- nobody is looking
11 at me. I am not here to talk to myself.
12 You may well want to consider discussing this
13 matter as to whether you truly want to get together for
14 another day's hearing in this matter. I understand the
15 father's desire to exercise authority consistent with being
16 the sole legal custodian. And I suppose this is
17 frustrating. It would be for me if I had to raise a child
18 with grandparents who had legal rights. But they have legal
19 rights for a very important reason in this very unique case.
20 It is highly unlikely that I will change
21 legal custody and give any sort of legal custody back to the
22 grandparents in this case. The father has it now. He is
23 doing fine with it. And I doubt that I am going to disturb
24 it. On the other hand, I am not sure if there is anything
25 else about the current arrangement that I think needs to be
132
I disturbed.
2 As Pastor Mahaffee points out, one of the
3 reasons why he has such an unusual relationship with his
4 step-grandmother is that this little boy doesn't have a mom.
5 So in the unique circumstances in this case, somehow, some
6 way, this child is managing to thrive and be happy. And
7 that is all my only concern is going to be in the outcome of
8 this case. And if he is happy with this arrangement, then
9 it is going to stay that way, because changing the pattern
10 and changing things is going to do not=hing but hurt this
11 little kid. I would also like to meet_ him. Is he in the
12 courthouse?
13 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Yes, he is, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Have him at least step into my
15 office so I can shake his hand.
16 MS. ROUSE: Your Honor, can I make a
17 suggestion? As far as the Wednesday nights, that maybe once
18 or even twice a month -- because it is hard --
19 THE COURT: I think that would be a perfect
20 way to address the issue. That's the thought that crosses
21 my mind, that perhaps Wednesday evenings may be a bit
22 disruptive. On the other hand, you do seem to be taking
23 care of his homework, and that's a good thing too. But, on
24 the other hand, Wednesday night, that is a problem. And I
25 can see his position on that. And if you are willing to
133
I compromise on that, I think you folks ought to talk about
2 it.
3 MR. ROUSE: Your Honor, if I may say
4 something?
5 THE COURT: well, I don't want to turn this
6 into a free- for-all. This isn't Judge Judy. You tal k among
7 yourselves. You are going to have another ten years, twelve
8 years, to wo rk with this little boy, so you ought to start
9 to get used to talking about it among yourselves.
10 I will, however, schedule a continued hearing
11 if it is det ermined that it is required.
12 (End of proceedings)
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134
CERTIFICATION
I hereby certify that the proceedings are
contained fully and accurately in the notes taken by me on
the above cause and that this is a correct transcript of
same.
i/? Ag?
Barbara E. Graham
Official Stenographer
The foregoing record of the proceedings on
the hearing of the within matter is hereby approved and
directed to be filed.
14 7 zo0y
Date
N
A. Hess, J.
Judicial District
135
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J
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1?.
KENNETH L. KREITZER, IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF
Plaintiff
CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
V. CIVIL ACTION - LAW
FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR.,
LINDA J. ROUSE and
DEBORAH ROUSE,
Defendants
03-6357 CIVIL TERM
IN CUSTODY
IN RE: TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Proceedings held before the
HONORABLE KEVIN A. HESS, J.,
Cumberland County Courthouse,
Carlisle, Pennsylvania,
on Friday, June 11, 2004,
in Courtroom Number 4.
APPEARANCES:
JEANNE B. COSTOPOULOS, Esquire
Counsel for Father
FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR., &
LINDA J. ROUSE, Pro se
INDEX TO WITNESSES
FOR THE DEFENDANT DIRECT CROSS
Frederick R. Rouse, Sr. 3 15
I THE COURT: Now, I believe we need to finish
2 with some testimony in this case, am I correct? Go ahead.
3 Whereupon, FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR., having
4 been duly sworn, testified as follows:
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MS. ROUSE:
7 Q Mr. Rouse, why is it you do not have a close
8 relationship with your son and daughter at this moment?
9 A I didn't hear you.
10 Q Why is it you do not have a close
11 relationship with your son and your daughter at this moment?
12 A Well, when Andy came into the picture,
13 everything just about fell apart.
14 Q Okay. How was this relationship with your
15 children after we left Florida and we moved to Rhode Island
16 in 1998?
17 A We brought the son up. And he was with us
18 for roughly a week. Debbie was with her mother, which is my
19 daughter.
20 Q Did you have regular contact with your
21 daughter and her husband at that time?
22 A Yes, we did.
23 Q With phone calls. Were you still in contact
24 with your son and your daughter after we moved to
25 Pennsylvania in 1993?
3
1 A Yes, we were.
2 Q Was it every week?
3 A Just about every weekend.
4 Q To both your son and your daughter and your
5 grandchildren?
6 A Right.
7 Q I am not sure we covered it in the first
8 question, but just exactly why did this change -- did this
9 have anything to do after your daughter left Pennsylvania
10 and went back to Florida?
11 A Yeah. I got a phone call from my ex-wife
12 saying that Debbie was completely out of control. And then
13 my son called me and said, happy birthday, Dad, your
14 daughter is in jail. And I said on what account. And he
15 wasn't sure. But we found out that she had two counts of
16 neglect. And also I believe it was petty larceny what they
17 had against her.
18 Q So up until this time did your son or anybody
19 in the family give you any indication that your daughter was
20 having any problems with her children?
21 A Everybody was saying she was doing good and
22 Freddy was doing good.
23 Q So that basically you were upset with your
24 son and that ended it?
25 A Yes.
4
1 Q On the afternoon, after we left this
2 courtroom, we were to take Andy home with us, because it was
3 basically after 5:00, am I correct?
4 A Yes, it was.
5 Q Can you tell me what transpired when you
6 tried to do that?
7 A Well, Andy was upset, which I could
8 understand, but apparently the father had promised him that
9 he was going to take him out bowling, which I can understand
10 that. And we volunteered, after we helped calmed Andy down,
11 to pick him up at a later time that night, which I believe
12 it was 8:00 or 9:00 is when we came back to Camp Hill and
13 picked him up.
14 Q So then Mr. Kreitzer had promised his son
15 that he could go bowling that evening, even though it was
16 supposed to be our weekend?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Even though he did not know how this was
19 going to transpire?
20 A Exactly.
21 Q On the 21st of April we were to pick Andy up
22 at school. He wasn't in class that day, was he?
23 A No. When we drove up in the parking lot, Mr.
24 Kreitzer and Andy was setting -- or getting out of his
25 pickup truck. And we thought it was kind of unusual. The
5
I father explained to us that Andy had just came back from the
2 dentist. He had a dentist appointment and had some teeth
3 worked on.
4 Q Now, these two teeth were molars that were
5 pulled. Are they the same teeth that I took pictures of?
6 A I believe they were, yes.
7 Q So they were that decayed that they had to
8 pull his teeth?
9 A Pardon me?
10 Q They were that decayed that those teeth had
11 to be pulled?
12 MS. COSTOPOULOS: I object to what he would
13 know about the decay of his teeth --
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 BY MS. ROUSE:
16 Q Did we have Andy that Sunday before we picked
17 Andy up that Wednesday morning?
18 A Right.
19 Q Did Mr. Kreitzer give you any indication that
20 Andrew had a dentist appointment?
21 A No. He never said a word.
22 Q Did he call the Wednesday night before?
23 A No.
24 Q I mean, Tuesday night before. So we had no
25 idea that he had this dentist appointment. Would you have
6
1 been willing to let Andy forego that Wednesday to Thursday
2 so that Andy could have recuperated?
3 A Yes, we would have.
4 Q But Andy wanted to go with us once he saw us?
5 A Right.
6 Q And did we find a call on our answering
7 machine that Mr. Kreitzer had called approximately about
8 noon or thereafter that Wednesday to pick up Andy when we
9 came home?
10 A I believe there was a phone call on there
11 about 12:30. But you and I had things that we had to do. I
12 had a doctor's appointment, so...
13 Q Okay. Previously Mr. Kreitzer had stated
14 that the reason that his parents were always with him when
15 he took Andy was that he was afraid of what we may say or do
16 in front of his son, am I correct?
17 A Right.
18 Q But yet this was only on every other Sunday
19 when he picked him up. But yet every other Friday
20 afternoon, when you would drive to pick up Andrew, was there
21 anyone there representing Mr. Kreitzer to monitor that
22 exchange?
23 A Not outside. It was just Andy and his father
24 coming out and us. But there was nobody else I know.
25 Q So the fear was only when he came to our
7
1 house then?
2 A Right.
3 Q Since we have been in this courtroom has Mr.
4 Kreitzer had anybody with him when he picked up Andrew?
5 A I can't hear you.
6 Q Since the last time we were in this
7 courtroom, has Mr. Kreitzer had an escort to pick up Andrew?
8 A No.
9 Q He has been by himself?
10 A He has been by himself.
11 Q When you pick up Andrew, do you notice a
12 secondhand smoke odor in his hair and his clothes?
13 A I notice an odor, and it does smell like
14 smoke. But I am not a, what you call it, expert on
15 secondhand smoke. But it does have a smell like secondhand
16 smoke.
17 Q Okay. It was brought up previously that
18 somewhere in the middle of the last custody hearing that you
19 were being investigated by Children and Youth. And I have
20 the exact wording. According to the report, the type of
21 suspected abuse was immediate risk of sexual abuse, am I
22 correct?
23 A Exactly.
24 Q And did an investigation individual come in
25 from Lebanon County?
8
1 A Yes, they did.
2 Q Were they questioning us for quite a long
3 period of tim e?
4 A Yes, they were. They were there.
5 Q Was this individual also aware of the pending
6 charges that were made against you concerning the two minor
7 girls that we had?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And did she have access to those files?
10 A Yes, she did.
11 Q So she was aware of everything?
12 A Exactly.
13 Q Do you know what were the results of that
14 investigation ?
15 MS. COSTOPOULOS: I object to him testifying.
16 THE COURT: Was it founded or unfounded?
17 MS. ROUSE: It was unfounded, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Okay. Then it is unfounded.
19 MS. ROUSE: Would you want this, Your Honor?
20 THE COURT: No. It is unfounded.
21 BY MS. ROUSE:
22 Q Mr. Rouse, we had problems with Mr. Kreitzer
23 that he said, she said, when we had given information, is
24 this true?
25 A Yes.
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Q And was it advised by our previous attorney
that we give Mr. Kreitzer handwritten notes of what was
needed or what needed to be done?
A Exactly.
Q And did he suggest that he should sign for
them?
A Yeah. Tha t's what our attorney said.
Q At anytime did Mr. Kreitzer refuse to sign?
A There was one time that he refused to sign,
yes.
Q And did he have his attorney write a letter
stating a reason that he couldn't sign was because the porch
was poorly lit and...
A Right.
MS. ROUSE: May I show this to him?
THE COURT: Go ahead.
BY MS. ROUSE:
Q
Is this a picture of you standing on that
porch?
A
Yes.
MS. COSTOPOULOS
I object to the relevance
of this.
THE COURT: I have no idea what it is.
MS. ROUSE: Mr. Kreitzer, and it was brought
up last time, Mr. Kreitzer stated that he was on this porch,
10
1 that these papers were thrown at him. He couldn't read
2 them. There was poor lighting.
3 THE COURT: What papers are you talking
4 about?
5 MS. ROUSE: We gave him -- this is what we
6 started out with. It says, Ken, because there seems to be
7 such a big discrepancy on who gives information and when, we
8 have come up with this idea. This way there can no longer
9 be any he said or they said. It is now in black and white.
10 You may do the same if you wish. Anything that concerns
11 Andrew --
12 MS. COSTOPOULOS: I object to this.
13 THE COURT: The method of examination here is
14 bizarre beyond belief, Ms. Costopoulos. I really don't know
15 what to do about it to be truthful with you.
16 You are doing all the testifying. He hasn't
17 said a word. You are leading him. This is completely
18 improper.
19 MS. ROUSE: I am sorry, Your Honor. But...
20 THE COURT: Summarize what your offer would
21 be of the testimony, and we will see if we can have some
22 general agreement. You attempted to communicate with him in
23 writing because you can't communicate with him verbally. Is
24 that where we are at?
25 MS. ROUSE: Yes.
11
1 THE COURT: And he doesn't appear to have
2 cooperated very much in that effort.
3 MS. ROUSE: No. And we asked him to sign,
4 and it got to the point where he would not sign. And, Your
5 Honor, this is a picture of the porch with my husband
6 standing there. Mr. Kreitzer is taller than my husband. We
7 have a porch lamp here. The hall light was on. The kitchen
8 light was on. And there is also a light, a lamp post,
9 further on. And I can't understand --
10 THE COURT: I make this observation. None of
11 this case will turn on any of that stuff. The issue today
12 is what is in the best interests of Andrew T. Kreitzer.
13 MS. ROUSE: Okay. Yes, sir.
14 THE COURT: Should you continue to be in his
15 life to the extent that you are, or to the extent that the
16 Court in Lebanon County said you should be. And I would
17 really rather hear much more about Andrew than I would about
18 any of you folks.
19 MS. ROUSE: Okay. I can do that, Your Honor.
20 BY THE COURT:
21 Q For example, Mr. Rouse...
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q What contact have you had recently with the
24 child?
25 A Recently?
12
I Q Yes.
2 A We had him two weekends ago. This is our
3 coming up weekend.
4 Q What do you have planned?
5 A Whatever the weather permits.
6 Q Does he seem to be looking forward to
7 visiting you?
8 A Every time we go to pick him up he seems like
9 he is.
10 Q Has he ever told you that he would rather not
11 come with you, that he wants to stay with his dad?
12 A He never has.
13 Q Do you see him during the week?
14 A We have cut back on the Wednesday to
15 Thursday. When gas prices went up --
16 Q I remember you saying :Last time that you
17 agreed that yo u thought that was a little disruptive.
18 A Right.
19 Q And that you were content, at least for the
20 time being, to see him mostly on the weekends?
21 A Right. With the gas and everything going up,
22 and how 81 is, I mean, this morning they had three accidents
23 out there.
24 Q Two fatal accidents.
25 A Right. I grant you, today is Friday, but
13
1 with the gas prices going up, and I am being on a fixed
2 income, and the route that we take, my wife and I have
3 talked about it. And I thought we ought to back off on --
4 Q If you will refresh my recollection again, it
5 has been a w hile since we talked about this at this hearing,
6 but where do the two of you folks live?
7 A We live in Lebanon.
8 Q And he lives in Camp Hill.
9 A In Camp Hill.
10 Q Okay. I understand.
11 A And we normally travel 81. But a lot of
12 times we do travel the turnpike. We listen to the reports
13 in the morni ng to see what route we want to take. If 81 is
14 not too bad, but now that they have got all this road
15 construction down by Lebanon -- or I should say Lickdale to
16 Pine Grove, it is really backed up and everything.
17 Q I know where you mean. Andy is out of school
18 now, right? School is over?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Does your existing court order have anything
21 special in t he summer, or is it still every other weekend?
22 A What are we going to do with him with the
23 summer?
24 Q Yes.
25 A We have a swimming pool at the house. He
14
1 always plays out in the yard and everything.
2 Q But your visitation with him is no different
3 in the summer than it is during the school year?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q Okay. It is the same all the time. Okay.
6 And why do you think it is in Andy's best interests that he
7 continue to spend every other weekend with his grandparents
8 even though he is being raised by his father? Why do you
9 think that's in his best interests?
10 A The child loves being around us. I mean, he
11 enjoys us. He has never said anything derogatory, you know,
12 to me.
13 Q Okay. That's the bottom line of all of this.
14 And then I have decide what to do.
15 Ms. Costopoulos, do you have any questions on
16 cross-examination?
17 CROSS-EXAMINATION
18 BY MS. COSTOPOULOS:
19 Q I just wanted to know if the sex offender
20 evaluation you were ordered to do as part of your sentence
21 if you did that and how that --
22 A It is ongoing for twenty-three months, ma'am.
23 I can't elaborate on it, because they have told me not to
24 say anything outside the class. For the twenty-three months
25 I guess I am going to be involved in this, until my
15
1 probation is over with.
2 Q Well, at the beginning was there like an
3 evaluation? Did you take a test or how --
4 A No, ma'am.
5 Q What is it, is it a class?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q Are you aware whether Andy has friends in the
8 Camp Hill area?
9 A Does Andy have friends in the Camp Hill area?
10 Q Right. Does he ever talk about friends that
11 he has?
12 A Yes, ma'am. We know that he does have
13 friends.
14 Q Does he ever tell you that he makes plans
15 with his friends or that his friends sometimes do things on
16 the weekends that he cannot attend, because he has to go to
17 your house?
18 A No, ma'am. We woke up, I think it was the
19 last time we had him, and this was the first time we heard
20 about it, that he had a birthday party to go to. Now, why
21 didn't the father call us during the week, and we could have
22 made different arrangements, changed our weekend or even
23 taken Andy over there and dropped him off. But nobody wants
24 to communicate. I mean, we don't have it cut in stone that
25 Andy on that precise day that he has to be there. It has
16
1 not been set up. It has been set up that we have him every
2 other weekend. We are willing to work whatever way we need
3 to for this child, to help him.
4 If Mr. Kreitzer does not deem to want to call
5 us and say, can you skip a day, and let Andy go to a
6 birthday party, or if he has a soccer game or whatever, we
7 are willing to, you know, work with the father on that. But
8 it has never, ever happened.
9 Andy brought it to our attention. We didn't
10 know where the birthday party was going to be. When Andy is
11 at our house, he gets up like at 10:00 or 11:00 in the
12 morning on Saturday. We let him sleep in.
13 Q If the alternating weekends were to continue,
14 do you intend to still take the child to your church,
15 against the father's wishes, even though he has legal
16 custody, and should be making decisions about the child's
17 religion?
18 A Well, ma'am, if my wife and I go to church, I
19 can't leave him home. I would not leave that child alone at
20 my house. So I would say he would have to be going with us,
21 yes. He would be going to church with us.
22 Q Well, if the father objects to the child
23 attending church, would you have a problem with the child
24 being returned on Saturday night?
25 A Yes. Because that would be cutting into my
17
1 time.
2 Q And why do you believe that that would be
3 detrimental to Andrew?
4 A Pardon me?
5 Q Why would that be detrimental to Andrew? How
6 would that hurt Andrew?
7 A Then you are cutting the day shorter from
8 what we can plan to do with the child if that happens. We
9 are only seeing him Friday night until Sunday at 6:00. We
10 pick him up Friday night at 5:00. And his father picks him
11 up at our house at 6:00 on Sunday. So how many hours do we
12 have him? Even on the Wednesday to Thursday, there wasn't
13 that many hours. And now that we have virtually cut that
14 out, the only thing that we have now is the weekend.
15 Q Would you have a problem not attending church
16 on the weekends that Andrew is with you?
17 A Yes. We could do that.
18 MS. ROUSE: Your Honor...
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 MS. ROUSE: My husband is an usher at the
21 church and I am a secretary. And it would frowned upon if
22 we were to just -- they have been very understanding to us.
23 And it has already been established how Andrew enjoys
24 church.
25 THE COURT: I remember the testimony.
18
1 BY MS. COSTOPOULOS:
2 Q You testified that -- I am not sure if it was
3 really you t estifying, but it appeared that your daughter,
4 when she was in jail for two counts of neglect, was that
5 neglect of, what, her children?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q Did you interfere at all with the raising of
8 those childr en --
9 A She was in Florida.
10 Q -- in light of the problems she was having?
11 A No. She was in Florida with those children.
12 And then she moved up here for a little over a year. And
13 she moved ba ck to Florida after having Andrew.
14 Q Where are those children now?
15 A As far as I know the boy is with her. And
16 if I am not mistaken, I believe the girl is with her first
17 husband's -- his grandparents, if I am not mistaken.
18 Q And how often do you see them?
19 A I haven't seen them since they moved from
20 here, after Andy was born.
21 Q What made you take a greater interest in
22 Andrew than of your other grandchildren?
23 A Andrew was here. I mean, they are down
24 south.
25 Q So it is solely because of the convenience of
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it?
A Well, basically. I mean, Andy is here. And
he is a beautiful little child, I mean, my goodness.
MS. ROUSE: Objection, Your Honor. There are
other grandparents that have --
THE COURT: Well, that's not an evidentiary
objection.
MS. ROUSE: Yes, sir.
MS. COSTOPOULOS: I don't have anything
further, Your Honor.
THE COURT
Thank you. Mr. Rouse, you can
step down.
Is Andrew here? I have not spoken with him
yet, have I?
MS. COSTOPOULOS: We didn't bring him today.
I thought you did speak with him briefly last time, very
briefly.
THE COURT: Yes, I did. Very briefly. Well,
if we are content to close the record, that's fine. I would
like to get a transcript of the hearing that we had back in
April. I recall the testimony, but I want to make sure that
I review it carefully before I enter any order in this case.
I have also got to look at the case law. Have you
researched any law?
MS. ROUSE: I just basically went where I
20
1 could get ahold of, Your Honor, what our rights would be.
2 THE COURT: Do you have any cases you want to
3 cite to me?
4 MS. ROUSE: No, sir.
5 THE COURT: Then I will have to find them
6 myself.
7 MS. ROUSE: Your Honor, can I ask you a
8 question?
9 THE COURT: No. What do you want to say?
10 MS. ROUSE: The reason that we put in the
11 request that we may regain our joint legal custody is
12 because there have been problems with the father's care for
13 the child, and I have documentation of that. Just in the
14 way he has been dressed, the clothing that he was sent to
15 school in. He has got shoes that you can put your fingers
16 right through the sides. I took a pict=ure of them before we
17 brought him to school. These are little things with a
18 child, when you are building your self--esteem, the clothes
19 should be neat and clean. They shouldn't have to be brand
20 new, but they should be in relatively good condition.
21 THE COURT: I couldn't in a minute consider
22 joint legal custody in this case. You two can't even agree
23 what day it is. The question will be how much partial you
24 have. And at the moment it appears to be in Andrew's best
25 interests to continue to see you folks. The question will
21
I be how much and when. Okay.
2 MS. COSTOPOULOS: Thank you, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: I will enter an order, and in the
4 meantime the existing custody arrangement is in full force
5 and effect. Thank you.
6 (End of proceedings)
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CERTIFICATION
I hereby certify that the proceedings are
contained fully and accurately in the notes taken by me on
the above cause and that this is a correct transcript of
same.
r?
Barbara E. Graham
Official Stenographer
The foregoing record of the proceedings on
the hearing of the within matter is hereby approved and
directed to be filed.
46h 7 e,00 -Y _ 14- Dat Kevi A. Hess, J.
Ni h Judicial District
23
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AHRENS LAW FIRM, P.C.
JEANNE B. COSTOPOULOS, ESQUIRE
Attorney I.D. No. 68735
52 Gettysburg Pike
Mechanicsburg, PA 17055
Telephone No. (717) 697-1800
Attorney for Plaintiff
KENNETH L. KREITZER, : IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS
Plaintiff : t.LTMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
V.
No. 03-6357
FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR. and
LINDA J. ROUSE and CIVIL ACTION -LAW
DEBORAH ROUSE, CUSTODY
Defendants
PLAINTIFF'S PETITION TO MODIFY ORDER FOR CUSTODY
AND NOW, comes Plaintiff, Kenneth L. Kreitzer, by and through his attorney, Jeanne B.
Costopoulos, Esquire, and avers the following ;r? suFport of this Petition:
1. The Plaintiff, Kenneth L. Kreitzer, is an adult individual who currently resides at
2109 Princeton Avenue #3, Camp Hill, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, 17011.
2. The Defendant, Frederick R. Rouse, Sr., is an adult individual who currently resides
at Lickdale Campground, 11 Lickdale Road, Jonestown, Lebanon County,
Pennsylvania, 17038.
3. The Defendant, Linda J. Rouse, is an adult individual who currently resides at
Lickdale Campground, 11 Lickdale Road, Jonestown, Lebanon County, Pennsylvania,
17038.
4. The Defendant, Deborah Rouse, is an adult individual who currently resides at 303
Foxridge Road, Lewisburg, North Carolina, 27549.
5. There is one dependant child from a relationship between Plaintiff and Defendant
Deborah Rouse, namely, Andrew T. Kreitzer, age 91/2, born August 29, 1997.
6. The child, Andrew T. Kreitzer, is presently in the custody of his natural father, Plaintiff
Kenneth L. Kreitzer, who resides at 2109 Princeton Avenue #3, Camp Hill, Cumberland
County, Pennsylvania, 17011.
7. Frederick R. Rouse, Sr., Defendant, is the natural maternal grandfather of the child.
8. Linda J. Rouse, Defendant, is the maternal step-grandmother of the child.
9. The parents of the child, Plaintiff Kenneth L. Kreitzer and Defendant Deborah Rouse
were never married to each other and the child was born out of wedlock.
10. Deborah Rouse, Defendant, is the natural mother of the child. She resides in North
Carolina and has never been significantly involved with the child.
11. The parties have previously been involved in litigation concerning the child in this
court at the above docket number. Most recently, following a hearing on the merits,
an Order was entered by the Hon.. Kevin A. Hess on July 29, 2004. Said Order is
attached hereto as Exhibit A. which is incorporated herein by reference as though
fully set forth.
12. Father seeks modification of the July 29, 2004 Order such that Defendants Frederick
R. Rouse, Jr., and Linda J. Rouse are limited to exercising partial custody of the child
one weekend per month.
13. Father believes the best interests and permanent welfare of the child will be served by
granting the relief requested because the child is almost 10 years old and has many
activities scheduled on weekends. Also, Defendants Frederick R. Rouse, Sr., and Linda
J. Rouse are now living in a motor home in a campground.
14. Father is also seeking to prevent Defendants from taking the child out of state without
first posting a bond or otherwise ensuring the child's return to Father. Father is
concerned for the following reasons:
(a) Defendants Frederick R. Rouse, Sr., and Linda J. Rouse have engaged in a
course of conduct designed to undermine Father's authority regarding his
son.
(b) Defendants Frederick R. Rouse, Sr., and Linda J. Rouse have sold their
home and are currently residing in a motor home which is primarily kept at
Lickdale Campground in Lebanon County, Pennsylvania.
(c) Other than the child, Defendants Frederick R. Rouse, Sr., and Linda J.
Rouse have no ties to Pennsylvania and most of their friends and relatives
reside in other states.
(d) Defendants Frederick R. Rouse, Sr., and Linda J. Rouse have refused to
provide Father with the child's original birth certificate and social security
card which both list the child's name as "Andrew Rouse".
(e) A sign in front of the motor home states: "The Rouses: Fred Linda and
Andrew"
(f) Defendant Linda J. Rouse continues to encourage the child to call her
"mommy"
(g) Defendants Frederick R. Rouse, Sr., and Linda J. Rouse informed Father
that they are taking the child to Florida for vacation this year. They further
requested that he allow them to keep the child for the entire summer.
(h) Defendants Frederick R. Rouse, Sr., and Linda J. Rouse recently requested
Father to sign a paper giving them more authority over the child so that
while they are out of state they will have that paper "just in case some
relative tries to take the child."
15. Father further requests that Defendants Frederick R. Rouse, Jr., and Linda J. Rouse be
required to provide Father with the child's original birth certificate and social security
card.
16. All Defendants are pro se and undersigned counsel has, therefore, not sought their
concurrence regarding the relief requested in this petition.
WHEREFORE, Plaintiff, Kenneth L. Kreitzer, respectfully requests this Honorable Court
to modify its July 29, 2004 Order such that Defendants Frederick R. Rouse, Sr., and Linda J.
Rouse are granted partial custody one weekends per month. In addition, Plaintiff requests the
Court to prohibit Defendants from removing the child from Pennsylvania without posting a bond
or otherwise complying with restrictions imposed by the Court to ensure the child's return to
Father. Lastly, Plaintiff requests that Defendants Frederick R. Rouse, Sr., and Linda J. Rouse be
Ordered to provide Father with the child's original birth certificate and social security card.
Respectfully Submitted:
AHRENS LAW FIRM, P.C.
By:
ANNE B. COSTOPOULOS, UIRE
Attorney I.D. No. 68735
52 Gettysburg Pike
Mechanicsburg, PA 17055
Telephone No. (717) 697-1800
Attorney for Plaintiff
Date:
EXHIBIT A
KENNETH L. KREITZER, : IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF
Plaintiff : CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
vs. 03-6357 CIVIL
CIVIL ACTION - LAW
FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR. and
LINDA J. ROUSE and DEBORAH
ROUSE,
Defendants
ORDER
AND NOW, this 2 9~ day of July, 2004, the order of the Court of Common Pleas of
Lebanon County, dated October 18, 2002, is herewith made an order of court but modified,
effective September 1, 2004, as follows:
1. Legal custody and primary physical custody of the child, Andrew T. Kreitzer, born
August 29, 1997, shall be in his father, Kenneth L. Kreitzer.
2. The defendants, Frederick R. Rouse, Sr. and Linda J. Rouse, shall have partial
physical custody as follows:
a. On alternafing weekends as heretofore. Notwithstanding, the father shall
be entitled to two weeks of uninterrupted custody during the year to be exercised
with sixty (60) days' notice to the grandparents.
b. For one week during the summer school vacation to be exercised with
sixty (60) days' notice to the father. The father's rights of custody set forth in
paragraph 2.a., above, shall take precedence over this paragraph.
c. Christmas shall be divided into two periods, the first period from 12:00 noon
on Christmas Eve until 12:00 noon on Christmas Day, and the second period from
12:00 noon on Christmas Day until 12:00 noon on December 26 h. The Christmas
holiday shall alternate from year to year as heretofore.
c. Holidays shall be alternated, as heretofore, beginning at 5:00 p.m. the
evening prior to the holiday until 6:00 p.m. on the respective day and shall
include: Easter, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, and Thanks-
giving.
d. Father's Day each year shall be with the father, from 4:00 p.m. the evening prior
until 6:00 p.m. that evening. The holiday and Father's Day schedule set forth above
shall supersede the weekend schedules.
3. During the times when the child is in the custody of the other party, the noncustodial
party shall have the right to have reasonable telephone contact with the child. Reasonable
telephone contact is defined as one phone call per day except in extraordinary circumstances.
4. While in the presence of the child, no party shall make or permit any other person to
make any remarks or do anything which could in any way be construed as derogatory or
uncomplimentary to the other party.
5. Transportation shall be shared by the parties as heretofore.
BY THE COURT,
Kevi A. Hess, J.
Jeanne B. Costopoulos, Esquire
For the Plaintiff
Frederick R. Rouse, Sr.
Linda J. Rouse
Pro Se TRUE COPY. FROM RECORD
to Testimony wher of, l. here nth set my hand
:rlm a seal of d Co rt arlisle, Pa.
t ......... ay •-. t
KENNETH L. KREITZER,
Plaintiff
V.
FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR. and
LINDA J. ROUSE and
DEBORAH ROUSE,
Defendants
: IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS
: CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
No. 03-6357
CIVIL ACTION -LAW
CUSTODY
VERIFICATION
I, Kenneth L. Kreitzer, hereby verify and state that the statements made in the foregoing
Petition are true and correct to the best of my knowledge, information, and belief. I understand
that false statements herein are made subject to the penalties of 18 Pa. C.S. §4904, relating to
unworn falsification to authorities.
w
Date: Signature: _
enneth L. Kreitzer
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I, Jeanne B. Costopoulos, Esquire, hereby certify that this day I personally served a copy of
the foregoing Petition upon the person, and in the manner, indicated below, which service satisfies
the requirements of the PA Rules of Civil Procedure, by depositing a copy of the same with the
United States Post Office at Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, through first class mail, prepaid, and
addressed as follows:
Frederick R. Rouse, Sr.
P.O. Box 87
Jonestown, PA 17038
Linda J. Rouse
P.O. Box 87
Jonestown, PA 17038
Deborah Rouse
303 Foxridge Road
Iewisburg, NC 27549
By:
ANNE B. COSTOPOULOS, E IRE
Attorney I.D. No. 68735
AHRENS LAW FIRM, P.C.
52 Gettysburg Pike
Mechanicsburg, PA 17055
Telephone No. (717) 697-1800
Date: Attorney for Plaintiff
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KENNETH L. KREITZER IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF
PLAINTIFF CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
V.
03-6357 CIVIL ACTION LAW
FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR. AND LINDA J.
ROUSE AND DEBORAH ROUSE IN CUSTODY
DEFENDANT
ORDER OF COURT
AND NOW, Tuesday, May 22, 2007 , upon consideration of the attached Complaint,
it is hereby directed that parties and their respective counsel appear before Dawn S. Sunday, Esq. the conciliator,
at 39 West Main Street, Mechanicsburg, PA 17055 on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 at 10:00 AM
for a Pre-Hearing Custody Conference. At such conference, an effort will be made to resolve the issues in dispute; or
if this cannot be accomplished, to define and narrow the issues to be heard by the court, and to enter into a temporary
order. All children ale five or older may also be present at the conference. Failure to appear at the conference may
provide grounds for entry of a temporary or permanent order.
The court hereby directs the parties to furnish any and all existing Protection from Abuse orders,
Special Relief orders, and Custodv orders to the conciliator 48 hours prior to scheduled hearing.
FOR THE COURT,
By: /s/ Dawn S. Sunda Es q.
Custody Conciliator
The Court of Common Pleas of Cumberland County is required by law to comply with the Americans
with Disabilites Act of 1990. For information about accessible facilities and reasonable accommodations
available to disabled individuals having business before the court, please contact our office. All arrangements
must be made at least 72 hours prior to any hearing or business before the court. You must attend the scheduled
conference or hearing.
YOU SHOULD TAKE THIS PAPER TO YOUR ATTORNEY AT ONCE. IF YOU DO NOT
HAVE AN ATTORNEY OR CANNOT AFFORD ONE, GO TO OR TELEPHONE THE OFFICE SET
FORTH BELOW TO FIND OUT WHERE YOU CAN GET LEGAL HELP.
Cumberland County Bar Association
32 South Bedford Street
Carlisle, Pennsylvania 17013
Telephone (717) 249-3166
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]Hi
JUN 2 5 2007
KENNETH L. KREITZER,
Plaintiff
vs.
FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR.
LINDA J. ROUSE AND DEB
Defendant
AND NOW, this
consideration of the attached
1. The prior Order of this
this Order.
IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF
CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
: 03-6357 CIVIL ACTION LAW
ROUSE,
IN CUSTODY
III
O"ER OF COURT
y
day of , 2007,
iciliation Report, it is or red and directed as follows:
upon
dated July 29, 2004, shall continue in effect as modified by
2. The Maternal Grandpare ts' eriods of partial custody on alternating weekends shall run
from Fridays at 6:00 p.m. through undaay at 6:00 p.m. during the school year and from Friday at 6:00
p.m. through Sunday at 7:00 p.m. d4fing the summer school break.
3. The Maternal Grand
Pennsylvania without the prior
4. The Maternal Grandp
schedule, including special trips
shall only discuss the modificati
not remove the Child from the Commonwealth of
;nt of the Father.
all discuss any proposed modifications to the partial custody
first with the Father outside the presence of the Child and
schedule with the Child after receiving the Father's consent.
5. The parties shall cooper toicontacting the Pennsylvania Department of Health to obtain
information as to the status of the hi 's original birth certificate issued prior to the change of his
surname to Kreitzer and shall take all reasonable steps to locate and void or destroy the prior birth
certificate.
6. The Maternal Grandmo her grees to refer to herself in the Child's presence by a term
denoting her status as Grandparen ra er than Mother and shall encourage the Child to refer to her by
that name as well to avoid potenti 1 co fusion for the Child.
7. This Order is entered
Conference. The parties may me
mutual consent, the terms of this
it to an agreement of the parties at a Custody Conciliation
,o provisions of this Order by mutual consent. In the absence of
shall control.
P11'
cc: Xanne B. Costopoulos, Esq
Frederick R. Rouse, Sr. and
?Peborah Rouse
J w rS
for Father
Rouse, Maternal Grandparents
BY THE COURT,
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8? :01 WV C- IPIP LODZ
A'dViON"C"Hi 'JIJ --J'Hl AG
KENNETH L. KREITZER
Plaintiff
vs.
FREDERICK R. ROUSE, SR.
LINDA J. ROUSE AND DEB
Defendant
Prior Judge: Kevin A. Hess
IN ACCORI
PROCEDURE 1915.3-8, the
1. The pertinent
follows:
NAME
Andrew T. Kreitzer
IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF
CUMBERLAND COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
03-6357 CIVIL ACTION LAW
i
ROUSE
IN CUSTODY
WITH CUMBERLAND COUNTY RULE OF CIVIL
lied Custody Conciliator submits the following report:
concerning the Child who is the subject of this litigation is as
CURRENTLY IN CUSTODY OF
29, 1997 Father
2. A custody conciliation onfOrence was held on June 20, 2007, with the following individuals
in attendance: the Father, Kennet L. Kreitzer, with his counsel, Jeanne B. Costopoulos, Esquire, and
the Maternal Grandparents, Frede 'ck R. Rouse, Sr., and Linda J. Rouse, who are not represented by
counsel in this matter. The Mo er, Deborah Rouse, who has not had significant involvement or
contact with the Child, did not aft d the conference or contact the Conciliator.
3. The parties agreed to entry of an Order in the form as attached.
Date
Dawn S. Sunday, Esquire
Custody Conciliator