HomeMy WebLinkAbout05-22-02 (3)
1 March 21, 2002, 3:22 p.m.
2 Carlisle, Pennsylvania
3 (Whereupon, the followin~ proceedings
4 were held in chambers:)
5 THE COURT: Are we ready to proceed?
6 MS. VERNEY: Yes Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: I am Judge Bayley, Mrs. Gerber. If
8 you will raise your right hand, my stenographer will swear you
9 in. She will give you an oath.
10 W~ereupon,
11 MILDRED JANE GERBER,
12 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
13 DIRECT EXAMINATION
14 BY MS. VERNEY:
15 Q Mrs. Gerber, will you tell us your name for the
16 record.
17 A It's Mildred Jane Gerber Flanagan.
18 Q Okay. Do you --
19 MR. LASKOWSKI: Your Honor, can I ask before you
20 begin -- and this may expedite some time before I get to my
27 questioning. Can I ask -- and perhaps counsel can answer
22 this.
23 For the record today, as opposed to posing
24 questions to Mrs. Gerber, can we be updated as to her status
25 regarding her medications at this point and time?
2
1 We have an understanding from the prior hearing as
2 to what Mr. Gerber had testified to. She was taking Celexa
3 and Aricept, and those medications have pronounced side
4 effects which vary from individual to individual but they --
5 THE COURT: Yes, if somebody knows what the status
6 of her medications are.
7 MR. LASKOWSKI: If she's under medication today,
8~ what is she taking?
9 THE COURT: Identify yourself.
10 MS. HEFLIN: Jane Heflin.
11. THE COURT: And she has been living with you for
12 how long?
13 MS. HEFLIN: Since December 23rd.
14 THE' COURT: What medications is she under?
15 MS. HEFLIN: She's on Aricept and Celexa, whatever
16 those two medications -- the same medications as before.
17 MR. LASKOWSKI: Same dosages?
18 MS. HEFLIN: Yes, same dosages and the same
19 medications.
20 THE COURT: It has not been changed? -
2~ MS. HEFLIN: It has not been changed since we have
22 been here.
23 THE COURT: Is that the extent of the medications?
24 MS. HEFLIN: That's the extent of the medication.
25 THE COURT: Okay. Now, go ahead.
3
1 MR. LASKOWSKI: Thank you, Your Honor.
2 BY MS. VERNEY:
3 Q Mrs. Gerber, do you know why we're here today?
4 A Well, I have an idea.
5 Q What's your idea?
6 A You wanted to get some information from me.
7 Q Yes. Judge Bayley needs some information about
8~ how you feel about visiting with Marilyn.
9 A Is she here?
10 Q Marilyn is here.
11 A Where is she?
12 Q She's sitting over here.
13 A I know. I figured.
14 Q Do you want to visit with Marilyn?
15 A No.
16 Q Can you tell me why you don't want to visit with
17 Marilyn?
18 A Well, she's always telling me what to do. She
19 wants to ask for money. I don't know. You might ask her why
20 she's always asking for money. -
21 Q We just want to hear from you today.
22 A Just today?
23 Q Yes. Do you remember having other visits with her
24 in the last few weeks?
25 A No.
4
1 Q Do you recall having telephone conversations with
2 her?
3 A I'm not sure. Did I?
4 Q Well, just you have to answer. We're not going to
5 ask Marilyn. Did you have a rough trip coming in yesterday
6 from Chicago?
7 A A rough trip?
8~ Q A rough trip.
9 A Yes.
10 Q And are you tired today?
11 A Yes, I am. I am very tired, yes, I am. This
12 child here has helped me more than anything.
13 Q Do you remember if your son, Freddie, has asked
14 you if you want to talk to Marilyn or visit with Marilyn?
15 A No.
16 Q You don't remember that?
17 A No.
18 Q Okay. Could you tell the Judge today that if you
19 ever want to visit with her that you'll tell Fred and you
20 believe Fred would do that?
~ A I've got to be honest, I really don't know.
22 Q And what is it that you don't know, that you might
23 never want to speak to her or visit with her again?
24 A I'm not sure.
25 Q Okay. Is there anything else you want to tell the
5
1 Judge today?
2 A Who's the Judge?
3 Q That is the Judge over there.
4 THE COURT: I left my robe in the closet since we
5 are in my office. Anything else you want to say, ma'am?
6 THE WITNESS: Why, this is hard to decide,
7 difficult to decide.
8 ~ THE COURT: Okay.
9 MS. VERNEY: I think that's all I have, Judge.
10 MR. LASKOWSKI: Thanks very much.
11 CROSS EXAMINATION
12 BY MR. LASKOWSKI:
13 Q Mrs. Gerber, we've not met before.
14 A I can't hear you.
15 Q Can I sit here?
16 A Yes.
17 Q My name is Mr. Laskowski, and I'm an attorney. I
18 represent Marilyn, okay. That's who I am. We've never met
19 before --
20 A That's right. -
~ Q -- have we, Mrs. Gerber?
22 A Yes.
23 Q How do you feel today?
24 A I'm feeling terrible.
25 Q Oh, really. I'm sorry to hear that. How are you
1 feeling terrible?
2 A I ache all over. I've got troubles in my hips,
3 and I feel tired all the time. What else do you want to know?
4 Q I just wanted to know how you are doing. Are you
5 getting help for those things?
6 A I would say, yes, that I am.
7 Q Mrs. Gerber, do you know where you are today?
8 ~ A Well, I have a fair idea.
9 Q Well, could you tell me?
10 A Well, I guess I'm in the -- what you call -- it is
11 an office. Is that the man --
12 THE COURT: Judge's office.
13 THE WITNESS: Is that the man? Is he the man?
14 MR. LASKOWSKI: The Judge. He's the Judge, yes.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 BY MR. LASKOWSKI:
17 Q Do you know where you live?
18 A Where I live?
19 Q Um-hum, yes.
20 A Well, I know where I was born. -
2~ Q Okay. But I'm asking where do you live today?
22 A Where I live today?
23 Q Where is your home?
24 A Do I know where I live? Do you think I do? I
25 live out in -- what's the name of the place?
1 MS. HEFLIN: In Lombard.
2 BY MR. LASKOWSKI:
3 Q Mrs. Gerber --
4 THE COURT: Just hold on. Listen to his
5 questions. He will ask you another question.
6 BY MR. LASKOWSKI:
7 Q I'll help you out. If you don't remember, that's
8 okay, tell us that you don't remember. Do you know where your
9 home is?
10 A Do I know where my home is?
11 Q Can you tell me?
12 A I was born in West Virginia.
13 Q Where are you staying right now?
14 A Where do I stay?
15 Q Um-hum.
16 A I stay out -- do you know where, Marilyn Janie,
17 where --
18 THE COURT: You are not going to be able to ask
19 questions. Ask another question.
20 BY MR. LASKOWSKI: -_
~i Q Mrs. Gerber, can you tell me the names of your
22 children?
23 A The names of my children?
24 Q Um-hum.
25 A Well, there's Fred. Is that right? Is that what
1 you want to know?
2 Q I do. Do you have any other children?
3 A You told me that that was my daughter. Is that
4 right?
5 Q Well, we mentioned that earlier.
6 A What?
7 Q Is that your daughter?
8 ~ A I'm not sure.
9 Q Okay. Who is this sitting to my right here?
10 A That's my daughter.
11 Q What's her name?
12 A My precious daughter.
13 Q What's her name?
14 A Marilyn, right? No, no. It's what? Will you
~5 tell me?
16 THE COURT: We will ask another question. That's
17 okay, Mrs. Gerber.
18 BY MR. LASKOWSKI:
19 Q Mrs. Gerber, can you tell me who this person is
20 right here?
21 A She's a pretty woman, but I don't know what her
22 name is.
23 Q Do you know what she does for you?
24 A Well, from the looks of the papers she has, I
25 figure that she checks out on me.
1 Q Mrs. Gerber, did anybody tell you what to say
2 today?
3 A No, I don't think so. I think that she probably
4 has a good idea, a very good idea what I might say. I'm an
5 old school teacher.
6 Q You are?
7 A Yes.
8~ Q For how many years?
9 A For how many years?
10 Q Sure.
11 A I would say -- how many years? Goodness. How
12 many years a school teacher? Oh, I would like to say that I
13 was a school teacher for -- oh, gee. Oh, dear. That's an odd
14 question.
15 Q Okay. Fair enough. Do you have any
16 grandchildren, Mrs. Gerber?
17 A Do I have grandchildren?
18 Q Yes.
19 A Yes, I would say I do.
20 Q Really. Congratulations. How many grandchildren
21 do you have?
22 A Can I ask -- can I ask my children?
23 Q No, I'm sorry, they can't answer. We can find out
24 from them later though. I'll tell you what, I'll ask you
25 another question then, okay. Do you know what day today is?
10
1 A Today is Friday.
2 Q Do you know the month or the year? Can you tell
3 me the month or the year?
4 A The month? I'll be here --
5 Q What month this is. If you don't know, that's
6 okay, or if you don't remember.
7 A This is awfully -- it's awfully --
8~ THE COURT: Well, let's ask another question.
9 HR. LASKOWSKI: Let's go on to something else.
10 BY HR. LASKOWSKI:
11 Q Who lives with you in your home, MrS. Gerber?
12 A Who lives with me?
13 Q Um-hum.
14 A I live mostly at home except when my children come
15 home to spend time with me.
16 Q You don't remember the last time you saw Marilyn,
17 do you? ~
18 A When I saw her?
19 Q Yes.
20 A No. --
2~ Q Do you know where you've been living the last
22 three months?
23 A The last three months?
24 Q Um-hum.
25 A I've been living out in -- do you know what the
11
1 name of that village is?
2 Q Well, can you tell me what city it is or what
3 state it is?
4 A Well, it's out -- it's out in, um -- it's out --
5 oh, God, I know --
6 Q We can go on to another question.
7 A If you want to come back.
8~ Q Sure, we could do that. Do you remember talking
9 to Marilyn on the telephone, your daughter?
10 A At one time.
11 Q Is that only one time or has it been many times?
12 A No, I don't.
13 Q Would you like to talk to Marilyn on the
14 telephone?
15 A Would I like to talk to her?
16 Q Yes.
17 A But I have talked to her on the telephone.
18 Q Would you like to keep talking to her from time to
19 time?
20 A No, I don't think so.
2~ Q Why don't you think so?
22 A Well, the opportunity isn't as good as you think
23 it is.
24 Q Okay. Is there something that could make that
25 opportunity better?
12
A No, I don't.
2 Q And why isn't that opportunity as good as I think
3 it is?
4 A It's what, honey?
5 Q Why is that opportunity not as good as I think it
6 is?
7 A I have no idea.
8~ Q Can you tell me who your doctor is?
9 A Who?
10 Q Who your doctor is.
11 A My doctor?
12 Q Um-hum. Do you know his or her name?
13 A The name of my doctor is --
14 Q Do you know that? Can you tell me who it is?
15 A I think I do, don't I? Don't I?
16 Q Are there people around that help you during the
17 day?
18 A Where during the day?
19 Q Anytime during the day. Is there someone around
20 who helps you? --
21 A Who helps me?
22 Q Yes.
23 A Well, it's a little interesting to realize that I
24 don't keep track of those kind of things.
25 Q Do you have any friends that you see regularly?
13
1 MS. VERNEY: Judge, I'm going to object. I think
2 the purpose --
3 THE COURT: I agree. I have got a feeling for
4 what her status is.
5 THE WITNESS: The people that I see in the -- oh,
6 shucks, if I see them on a hill or something --
7 THE COURT: I do not want to have any more
8 ' questions on mental status because I can see what the
9 situation is.
10 MR. LASKOWSKI: I understand, Your Honor.
11 BY MR. LASKOWSKI:
12 Q Mrs. Gerber --
13 A Yes.
14 Q -- would it be okay if Marilyn visited with you
15 sometimes?
16 A If Marilyn visits me?
17 Q Yes, your daughter Marilyn. Would it be okay with
18 you if she visited with you sometimes?
19 A She came with what?
20 Q No, let me say that again. I apologize for n~t
~1 being clear. Would it be okay with you if Marilyn visited
22 with you sometimes?
23 A I would have to get -- I would have to get
24 permission.
25 Q Okay. Fair enough. Who would you have to get the
14
1 permission from?
2 A Sir, I'm going to be honest with you, I've never
3 met like this and I don't know -- my best advisor is my
4 daughter here that I love. What else can I say?
5 Q Who else helps you make decisions?
6 A Nobody that I know.
7 Q Can you tell me why you think you would need
8~ permission to see someone?
9 A Well, I need to have permission.
10 Q Yes.
11 A There are so many people in the world that I just
12 don't know what --
13 Q Mrs. Gerber, if you were told that you could
14 never, ever, ever see Marilyn again, how would that make you
15 feel?
16 A I don't know.
17 Q Mrs. Gerber, are there any troubles or problems
18 between your children that you know about?
19 A Do I know of any?
20 Q Um-hum. -
21 A No, I don't think so.
22 Q If there were, would you like to see your children
23 work them out and resolve them?
24 MS. VERNEY: Objection, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Yes, I think that is too complex.
15
1 MR. LASKOWSKI: Okay. I apologize, Mrs. Gerber.
2 Don't worry about that.
3 THE WITNESS: What's this man doing over here?
4 Who is he?
5 MR. LASKOWSKI: He is the Judge.
6 THE COURT: I should have worn my robe, Mrs.
7 Gerber.
8' THE WITNESS: I don't think he knows anything.
9 BY MR. LASKOWSKI:
10 Q Has Marilyn done -- your daughter Marilyn, you
11 know who she is, right?
12 A Yes, Marilyn.
13 Q Marilyn, your daughter, do you know where she is?
14 Can you point her out to me?
15 A Where Marilynwho?
16 Q Your daughter Marilyn.
17 A Who?
18 Q Your daughter Marilyn, is she in this room?
19 A I think she is.
20 Q Can you show me where? Point to her. -
2l A Is she -- are you my daughter? Are you my
22 daughter? No, I don't know. Everything went so fast today.
23 Q Mrs. Gerber, do you believe that your children
24 love you?
25 A Well, I know some daughters that do, but I'm not
16
1 sure of the rest.
2 Q And who are those that you know about, that you
3 are sure of?
4 A Who are they?
5 Q Um-hum, yes.
6 A Do you want me to tell in here?
7 Q Yes.
8' A Janie, you're my daughter, right? My daughter
9 Jane, right?
10 Q Anyone else?
11 A What else? What do you mean by what else?
12 Q Any other daughters, any other children of yours
13 that you are sure about?
14 A No, because I'm not able to tell, get around
15 and --
16 Q Do you get to see your son Fred very much?
17 A Yes and--no. He travels a lot. He's with the
18 military, and I just don't know how to answer that.
19 Q Do you remember the last time you saw Fred?
20 A The last time I saw Fred?
21 Q Um-hum.
22 A I know he's still alive, but I don't know.
23 Q Mrs. Gerber, would you like to take a break for a
24 few minutes?
25 A Yeah, I would.
17
1 MR. LASKOWSKI: Okay. Your Honor, may I have a
2 moment, just about one minute? I think I'm finished.
3 THE COURT: Do you want to talk to your client
4 outside?
5 MR. LASKOWSKI: Yes, if I could, please. I would
6 appreciate that. Thank you. You rest, Mrs. Gerber. Thank
7 you.
84 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)
9 THE WITNESS: I don't know who you are.
10 MR. RUPP: I know who you are.
11 THE WITNESS: How do you know?
12 MR. RUPP: Because I've helped do some work for
13 you before.
14 THE WITNESS: What did he say?
15 M3~. LASKOWSKI: He said he helped do some work for
16 you before.
17 THE WITNESS: A board?
18 MR. LASKOWSKI: Before.
19 THE WITNESS: Oh. Where?
20 MR. RUPP: In New Cumberland.
21 THE COURT: Off the record.
22 (Whereupon, a brief discussion was held
23 off the record.)
24 THE COURT: You have one more question?
25 MR. LASKOWSKI: Yeah, I do. Thank you very much.
18
1 THE WITNESS: You are Richard Rupp? What did you
2 ever do out where I live?
3 MR. RUPP: Fred had me do some things for you.
4 THE WITNESS: What did he say?
5 THE COURT: Off the record.
6 (Whereupon, a brief discussion was held
7 off the record.)
8 THE COURT: He has one more question.
9 MR. LASKOWSKI: I have one more question for you,
10 Mrs. Gerber.
11 BY MR. LASKOWSKI:
12 Q Does it make you happy when you see all of your
13 children?
14 A Yes. Not exactly all of them.
15 Q Okay. What do you mean not exactly all of them?
16 A Well, I can't be with all of them at one time.
17 Q Fair enough.
18 MR. LASKOWSKI: Thank you, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Any questions, Mr. Rupp?
20 MR. RUPP: No, I don't. -
21 MS. VERNEY: I have just a couple redirect.
22 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MS. VERNEY:
24 Q Mrs. Gerber, does it upset you to think about
25 Marilyn?
19
1 A Does it? No.
2 Q Does it -- it doesn't upset you to think about
3 her?
4 A No.
5 Q Would you like to visit with her?
6 A No.
7 Q Okay. Why don't you want to visit with her?
8~ A There's reasons.
9 Q Well, you know what, that man there needs to know
10 what those reasons are.
11 A Well, I'll tell him privately.
12 Q Well, let's pretend this is privately.
13 A With all these people here?
14 Q Right.
15 A I~ don't know what to say. I just know they wish I
16 would die.
17 Q Who does?
18 A Me. They don't care that much for me.
19 Q The other people here?
20 A No, I don't think they do. I don't think they
21 care whether I live or die.
22 Q Well, you know what, the Judge and all of us want
23 to know if you want to visit with Marilyn.
24 A No.
25 Q And he needs to know if you can tell him why or if
20
1 it upsets you.
2 A You mean that man over there?
3 Q Yes.
4 A Not unless I was by myself.
5 Q So you would tell him if you were by yourself with
6 just him?
7 A Um-hum.
8~ Q And you want all of us to leave?
9 A No. Do I have to tell everything in front of
10 everybody?
11 Q Well, it's sort of a test to see if you remember
12 those things and can articulate them. Is it that you don't
13 want to say those things in front of Marilyn?
14 A This is my favorite child. She's the kindest
15 woman I know.
16 Q Okay. Can you say that about Marilyn?
17 A It's been so long since I've seen her. Just leavel
18 it drop. Just drop it. We should just drop it.
19 Q But depending on what you say, the Judge might say
20 you have to visit with her. -
201 A Well, then I changed my mind.
22 Q And how did you change your mind then?
23 A I would change my mind by -- I would ask for help.
24 I would ask for help.
25 Q What kind of help?
21
1 A Well, going up the street with -- let's see, you
2 don't go up the street, do you?
3 Q Mrs. Gerber, she can't testify. We just want to
4 hear from you.
5 A Okay.
6 THE COURT: Is there anything else you want to
7 tell me, ma'am?
8~ THE WITNESS: No.
9 BY MS. VERNEY:
10 Q Are you afraid to say anything?
11 A Yes, I am.
12 MS. VERNEY: She says she is afraid.
13 THE WITNESS: Tell him I'm afraid. I would just
14 like to talk to him.
15 ~$. VERNEY: Again, she just wants to talk to you,
16 Judge.
17 THE COURT: Only if there is an agreement of all
18 of the parties.
19 MS. VERNEY: I certainly agree.
20 MR. RUPP: I agree. -
21 THE COURT: I will only do it if there is an
22 agreement of all parties.
23 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)
24 MR. LASKOWSKI: Your Honor, I have a question for
25 you. Do you have any questions regarding capacity and ability
22
1 today before you talk to her?
2 THE COURT: Well, sure, sure. But if she
3 wishes -- if she will tell me what her feelings are toward
4 Marilyn and whether she wants to see her and if she knows why
5 or if she doesn't know why and if she'll answer those
6 questions, I have to gauge it accordingly.
7 MR. LASKOWSKI: We have no objection, Your Honor,
8 understanding there will be a record made of that.
9 THE COURT: We will make a record.
10 (Whereupon, all parties left the room
11 except for the Judge, Mildred Gerber and
12 the stenographer.)
13 BY THE COURT:
14 Q Can I shake your hand?
15 A Well, I'm a wife.
16 Q Very nice.
17 A I'm a married woman.
18 Q You are. How many children did you have?
19 A How many children?
20 Q Yes.
~ A Are you going to quiz me for a long while?
22 Q A very short while.
23 A Okay. How many children did I have? Is that what
24 you want?
25 Q Yes.
23
1 A I had real nice children. Some of them were imps,
2 if you know what an imp is.
3 Q What are their names?
4 A What were their names? Some of the younger ones
5 would laugh at me.
6 Q Let me get to why the people left and why we are
7 here. You were asked as to whether or not you want to visit
8~ with your daughter Marilyn.
9 A With who?
10 Q Marilyn.
11 A No.
12 Q You don't want to?
13 A No.
14 Q I want you to tell me why, okay.
15 A ~Why I wouldn't what?
16 Q Why you would not want to visit with Marilyn. You
17 just told me you didn't want
18 A That's not Marilyn.
19 Q No, she went outside. This is our stenographer.
20 A Okay.
~01 Q She's --
22 A What did she go outside for?
23 Q Because you said you wanted to just talk to me,
24 the Judge.
25 A Who said that?
24
1 Q Well, I thought I heard you just say that you
2 wanted to tell me if you wanted Marilyn to visit with you and
3 you did not want anybody else to hear your answers.
~4 A That's right.
5 Q You can tell me.
6 A And you are going to persecute me.
7 Q I am not going to do a single thing to you.
8~ A You're not?
9 Q No. When we are finished here, you are going to
10 leave with Jane.
11 A Because she is the sweetest girl that I've ever
12 lived with.
13 Q Good. You know your daughter Marilyn would like
14 to visit with you.
15 A I know, but she's not the same caliber.
16 Q Would you agree if it was a short visit that
17 Marilyn could visit you? ....
18 A If Marilyn could visit me?
19 Q She is your daughter, and you know she loves you.
20 A Marilyn could visit with me? --
~ Q At Jane's. If you are at Jane's, or if you are
22 here in your home in New Cumberland, or anywhere else that you
23 were staying. Would that bother you at all?
24 A Yes, it would.
25 Q Can you tell me why?
25
1 A No, I don't tell everybody.
2 Q Well, I know you don't. That is why we let
3 everybody go out. I need to know why.
4 A Why I what?
5 Q Why you would not want to have Marilyn visit you.
6 You are not living with Marilyn, and you are not going to be
7 living with her.
8 A With who?
9 Q Well, you are living with Jane right now.
10 A Yes.
11 Q But no matter where you are living, and you are
12 not going to be living with Marilyn, are you sure you would
13 not like your own daughter to visit you occasionally?
14 A No, I don't think so.
15 Q Please tell me why.
16 A I can't.
17 Q Why not? .............
18 A Because. Do you tell all your secrets?
19 Q This is important that I know. This is why you
20 have been brought here today, and it will be the last ti~e, I
21 believe, that you will be here in court.
22 A Why?
23 Q So that you can tell me what your feelings are
24 about Marilyn.
25 A About Marilyn. Why don't you ask her?
26
1 Q Well, I need to know what your feelings are. I
2 know what her feelings are. She wants to visit you.
3 A She wants to?
4 Q Oh, yes, she's your daughter.
5 A Who?
6 Q Marilyn. She wants to see you.
7 A Too long.
8 ~ Q What?
9 A She' s mean. She' s mean.
10 Q What do you mean by that?
11 A What do I mean?
12 Q What do you mean by that?
13 A What do you think it means?
14 Q I'm not sure.
15 A Why don't you ask some of your people.
16 Q Oh, you are saying she is mean. I didn't
17 understand what you were saying. You think she is mean?
18 A Who?
19 Q Marilyn.
20 A Do I think she is? Yes. --
21 Q Has she been mean to you?
22 A Yes. Do you know that out in New Cumberland -- I
23 don't know if that's the way you would address it or not.
24 Q I know you have a house in New Cumberland.
25 A In New Cumberland --
27
1 Q Um-hum, that you live there. You lived there with
2 your husband. Do you remember?
3 A I haven't been in my New Cumberland --
4 Q Do you remember seeing Marilyn in New Cumberland?
5 A I can't recall.
6 Q Have you been with your daughter Jane in Chicago
7 for awhile?
8~ A Have I been with my daughter Jane?
9 Q Jane.
10 A Let me see.
11 Q Somebody told me I think that you've been with her
12 since around Christmastime.
13 A That I've been around Marilyn?
14 Q No, with Jane since Christmas.
15 A You mean Jane?
16 Q Um-hum.
17 -A Because she came to the same place where I was
18 staying. Do you want to know where I was staying?
19 Q Yes.
20 A You won't be mean to me, will you?
21 Q I would never be mean to you.
22 A Well, that's nice. I live out in a house with my
23 daughter over here.
24 Q Jane?
25 A Jane. I want to say that I say the right thing,
28
1 where my daughter Jane goes to college, and she is very --
2 she's not talkative. She's not -- I don't know what to say.
3 Oh, golly. You're trying to get something out of me.
4 Q I am just asking you about Marilyn. What I am
5 trying to learn from you, and what I need to know from you, if
6 you will tell me, is --
7 A Why do you want to know?
8~ Q Well, because that is what this -- I am a judge,
9 and that is what this hearing is about, whether or not you
10 should be seeing -- Marilyn wants to see you. You are her
11 mother. She wants to see you no matter where you are living,
12 and that's what she is asking, not that she take you or that
13 she deals with your money or that she deals with anything else
14 with you. She wants to be able to come and see you because
15 she is your ~aughter, and that is what the issue is here.
16 A Oh, well, I'm afraid I can't answer it.
17 Q You don't think you can. Why can't you tell me
18 whether you want to see Marilyn or not?
19 A If I want to see Freddie?
20 Q Marilyn. ~-
21 A Oh.
22 Q Why can't you tell me that?
23 A I'm sure -- I'm not quite sure that I'm getting
24 your question. Oh, dear.
25 Q Well, I'm not going to ask you any more questions
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1 if you don't want to tell me. It is important that I know,
2 but if you don't want to tell me --
3 A Why is it important?
4 Q Because I am the Judge, and I have to make some
5 decisions here as to whether or not you can see Marilyn or
6 not. It is hard for me to make that decision unless you tell
7 me what your feelings about Marilyn are.
8~ A About Marilyn? Why have you chosen her?
9 Q Well, that's because you are not living with her.
10 You are living with somebody else.
11 A No, I'm not.
12 Q Well, you are not living with Marilyn.
13 A I'm not?
14 Q No. Right now you are with Jane.
15 A I'm with Jane?
16 Q Yes. Well, the reason I am asking is that it is
17 important for me if you will be honest with me and tell me how
18 you feel about Marilyn visiting you.
19 A Yesterday I came up from the Potomac River.
20 Q Okay. Well, that is all the questions I have.
21 A Do you want to come back and get some more?
22 Q No. Do you want to say anything more to me?
23 A No. And I kept looking down at the beautiful
24 white river, and when we got into port -- I forget. I forget
25 a lot of things.
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1 Q I understand.
2 A I forget a lot of things.
3 Q I understand.
4 A But I saw the river and the beautiful water and
5 things like that.
6 Q Okay. I won't ask you any more questions.
7 A If you want to know more, come and see me.
8~ Q Okay. It was a pleasure being with you.
9 (Whereupon, the discussion in chambers
10 was concluded.)
11 (Whereupon, the following discussion was
12 held in the courtroom.)
13 MS. VERNEY: If I might go on the record.
14 THE' COURT: Wait until we get everybody in here.
15 MR. RUPP: Go ahead.
16 MS. VERNEY: When Jane Gerber said she's on two
17 medications, she is~i-.but she has a third medication,
18 Lorazepam, that is only given when she's agitated. She has
19 not had it today.
20 MR. LASKOWSKI: She has not had it, that's wh%t
21 you said?
22 MS. VERNEY: She has not had it.
23 THE COURT: When is the last time she has had it?
24 MR. LASKOWSKI: What is the dosage?
25 MS. HEFLIN: She had it last night, Judge, because
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1 she was very agitated from the trip.
2 THE COURT: Did you fly in?
3 MS. HEFLIN: No, I came down from my job in New
4 York, and a caregiver brought her in from Chicago.
5 THE COURT: She was brought in from Chicago how?
6 MS. HEFLIN: By an airplane.
7 THE COURT: Here?
8 MS. HEFLIN: Yes.
9 MR. LASKOWSKI: She was brought in yesterday, and
10 we understand that she's going back tomorrow.
11 THE COURT: Okay. I can only tell you, and the
12 record can be prepared, I did not get much further than any of
13 you folks did. At one point she said Marilyn is mean. When
14 I pressed her on that and tried to get her back into the line
15 of thought, she lost her train of thought.
16 (Whereupon, argument was held off the record.)
17 THE COURT: ..... I-understand the issues. An order
18 will be down shortly. Thank you.
19 (Whereupon, the hearing was concluded
20 at 4:16 p.m.) -
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CERTIFICATION
2 I hereby certify that the proceedings are
3 contained fully and accurately in the notes taken by me on the
4 above cause and that this is a correct transcript of same.
Pamela R. Sheaffer
7 Official Court Reporter~v
8~
9 The foregoing record of the proceedings on the
10 hearing of the within matter is hereby approved and directed
11 to be filed.
12
13
14
Date Edgar B. Bayley, J.
15 Ninth Judicial District
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